What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's like all that "change" we were hoping for with Obama seems to be coming at once.
What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's like all that "change" we were hoping for with Obama seems to be coming at once.
I am talking about both (for and not-for profit) universities.
Isn't graduation a responsibility of a student too? If a student is not graduating, isn't there a chance that he/she is not sufficiently working for it?
or
If a student is not graduating, isn't there a chance that he/she does not have what it takes to learn a subject?
The students should do a little bit of homework before joining any university: does the university seem suitable for me? do I seem suitable for the university? do I think I am capable of handling the study work? what is the quality of the faculty? what the almuni are saying about this university? what the other academics are saying about this university?
If a student cannot or will not do this little bit of homework, then I guess he/she deserves to be surprised (may get a good surprise if lucky else bad surprise).
Yes, but informational asymmetry is a much bigger problem for larger, less frequent decisions, like buying a house, or going to college.
With small, frequent decisions, like buying groceries, you can quickly learn from your mistakes and the harm done from potentially choosing an inferior/overly expensive grocer a few times is small.
With college, if you don't figure out that the educational provider was poor until after you've graduated, you're already wasted tens of thousands of dollars and years of your life for a useless degree. That's a much bigger issue.
Is using google that difficult?
After all, I went to college before the internet, and didn't have any trouble finding reviews of the various options, and used that to form a list to apply to. With google it's a few minutes' job.
There's never been less information asymmetry.
This seems fair to me. You can argue that wasted money at NFP schools ends up in someone's pocket, but bald faced "every buck not spent educating you" going into the pocket of capital seems worse.
If the outcomes at FP higeher education aren't better, why not avoid funneling federal money (in the form of no interest loans, etc) directly in private profits?
But most of these schools are in the "credits earned may not transfer" class, at which point the only thing you have going for you is vocational (which has merit). But if you're a hybrid or a degree awarding institution that no other schools recognize, then that's a problem and there's near zero value to what you're offering (which isn't to make it sound cliquey, but still).
A school, on the other hand, charges tuition, and therefore any transaction between the student and the school must be viewed under the lens of a financial transaction.
For example? Out of hand I can't think of anything obvious - but I only really knows how the system works in Germany, which is quite different indeed to the US system.. so that might be the reason why I can't.
The theory of markets is that even if a company is staffed by the greediest sons of bitches, market mechanisms will force them to converge on delivering high customer value. But markets work best when you have savvy customers that purchase frequently, can quickly evaluate results, and can easily try other suppliers.
Unfortunately, none of that is true for education. Most customers purchase just one degree. They are by definition ignorant about the topic. Switching schools is hard. It takes years to find out if the education is really any good in the job market. The barrier to entry for new schools is very large.
So even in principle I think there's good reason to be suspicious of for-profit education.
The Administration has been heightening scrutiny of colleges receiving federal aid money, particularly for-profit institutions, for some time. The ITT action echoes the prior action against Corinthian.
Old article http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/09/take-away-harva...
I dont understand. ANY for profit? Like Apple or Ford?
Or just educational institutions? If just educational institutions, what is special about that sector that makes them a plague?
My "Public" University was basically a football program which had classes to try and justify its existence.
Think Stanford isn't for profit? Harvard? University of California?
The only difference is who is making the profit an what their incentives are.
ITT doesn't make money if its students don't get jobs. Does UC Santa Cruz really care more?
The problem is that these institutions provide expensive educations, paid for by people taking out student loans (which the institutions actively encourage). However, these same institutions don't provide any sort of education that would give their students even a remote chance of paying off the student loans on any reasonable timeframe.
This creates a system of perverse incentives where the degree mill is essentially farming student loan money, screwing over both the student and the government in the process.
My read on the news is that the policy is supposed to stop exactly this phenomenon.
I didn't even know this was a thing until after I graduated (I never got a Pell Grant because my parents made too much money).
Some schools have over 90% of their students funding their entire costs through Pell Grants (look at University of Puerto Rico or Interamerican University of Puerto Rico for some extreme examples).
So 40% of ITT students got 10% of their tuition from ITT, and ITT got 4% of its revenue from Pell Grants.
To me it feels like it can't have just been paid in cash, because if you have $16,000 per year just lying around... you are probably in a situation where you can find better options than ITT.
This special class of loans has both a relatively low interest rate (making them appealing for consumers) and cannot be defaulted on, an important feature when there is no collateral for a loan. (This feature is not needed, for instance, when you buy a home, because if you default on your mortgage they can take your home, which you put up as collateral.)
This created the opportunity for investors to create educational institutions with a thin veneer of respectability, suck in any student who could qualify for loans, and funnel that money back to the investors. Which many did.
Removing the eligibility for this special class of loan for (all, or just the known offenders) for-profit universities removes this opportunity without actually outlawing for-profit universities. This opportunity only existed because of the federal government meddling in the free market, so everyone should be happy.
There's nothing wrong with for-profit schools in theory. It's a socio-economic problem. There's already so much money flowing through the US university system that the vast majority of for-profit schools are predatory institutions targeting lower-class, under-educated people. Their primary business model is to convince students to take out loans to pay for a white-collar education that won't make them any more employable.
The educational part seems to be a facade for the big money/big institution part.
(Bitter much? Sure. ;-)
Absolutely.
The problem is our university system as it stands is now really structured for profitability. The system was originally designed to cater to wealthy students and when public universities came to be, they kept the same model, and used tax subsidies to maintain it.
An effective for-profit education system would look nothing like our current university system. But a higher education system that doesn't match our current system isn't useful for students because the majority of them are looking for degrees, not necessarily an education.
Theoretically there's nothing wrong with for-profit schools, but the current educational climate prevent them from working. For now, for-profit education really only has a place in domains that can be taught adequately in less than a year and where the student's outcome can be readily assessed.
I think this applies to far more schools than just private for-profits like ITT. There are many recent graduates from non-profit public schools that have mountains of debt and very little job prospects.
That sounds like a fully-general argument against provision of any good by a for-profit business: "The issue with private farms is that the profit comes before the food." "The issue with private semiconductors is the profit comes before the computational efficiency."
True, profits do bring the potential for fraud, abuse, etc., but obviously there are at least some situations where that can all be contained. What's special about education per se?
You cite abuses, but are those artifacts of the for-profit part, or the "students generally don't have good information about what a given school will do for their career"? I mean, there are lots of cases of students at "non-profit" public universities who are drowning in debt from a worthless degree.
In the US? The fact that it gets paid for with loans that aren't dischargeable in bankruptcy.
I don't see a similar issue with for-profit schools. In order to attract students they need to to provide good education and foster a good reputation.
Prestige is a funny thing - the fact that a school is hard to get into and expensive may well raise prestige, regardless of educational outcomes.
Don't forget, it's very hard for students and (future) employers/investors/business partners to tell how good an education is. It's quite difficult even for the institutes themselves and any oversight that may exist.
That means incentives aren't as simple as you suggest. Sure, at some very, very long term horizon, better education helps an institute. But that may well be multiple generations away; much too far away to work well in an open market. Especially since there is so much other noise that can be optimized instead.
By constrast, the state's interest in decent education is much more straighforward (not that the politicians making the choices have their incentives straight, but that's another story). In particular, whereas it's clearly in the for-profit institutes interest to milk students no matter how and no matter how unfairly. This is a normal risk in any organisation - but the point is that for-profit organisations aren't magic optimization bullets. These downsides don't need to be a problem, but they do need to be dealt with, and there needs to be some upside to the deal too. What's the upside here?
I think you're clearly right for short-enough courses with clearly demonstrable and measurable outcomes. And I bet you're right in the abstract too, in the sense that "it should be possible to align incentives such that..." - but I'm not sure it holds given the current way education is structured.
Real-world evidence certainly doesn't seem to suggest profit-motive works very well here.
If you're from generations of laborers who have never gone to college, then taking out a predatory loan to go to a predatory school that gives you a somewhat useless degree seems like a good idea at first glance.
Or they just need to dupe people who don't know any better.
A lot of the people who end up at these places are poor, don't have friends or relatives with college degrees, didn't get good advice, and simply don't know how to recognize a scam. Now they have six figures of student loan debt they can't get rid of, and a low-prestige degree that many employers won't even consider.
After all, we have basically that system for for-profit schools and ...
And FWIW, the coding bootcamp I went to (for profit) did more for my career than my non-profit university.