Trollala – Fight patent trolls by banding together confidentially | Hacker News Reader

Trollala – Fight patent trolls by banding together confidentially

trollala.com

134 pointsideaphore37 comments

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This is great. Would like to see more of these kinds of efforts.

Just watched The Patent Scam video by Austin Meyer (developer of X-Plane flight sim who was sued by patent trolls).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG9UMMq2dz4

That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

Thanks. It makes our blood boil too.

I remember watching this video here, a while back. Has Google stepped up in defense of Austin yet?

Are you working with Newegg on this? Lee Cheng could be a powerful ally https://twitter.com/leechcheng

Good idea. We'll reach out.

What's to stop the troll from submitting their own letter and joining and/or influencing the defense group?

Trolls might very well try this. We will carefully screen people who sign up to make sure this doesn't happen. We have several ways in mind to do this, happy to discuss if you're interested. If trolls stoop to fraud or bribery to infiltrate the group, there's not much we can do - this is true of regular joint defense groups too. If they do infiltrate, they can make things difficult, but they can't completely destroy the utility of it. Our tools would still make small businesses more powerful than they were alone.

Plus, it would look very poorly in court if trolls would be caught doing this. So maybe instead of not letting them join, show them that they "joined", but don't show them any relevant information?

Actually, your best defense is to be able to identify the troll (which is difficult!) because if you can show "bad faith" on their part in court that really helps your case.

Just wondering, is this a weekend 'throw up a template' project or a serious effort from someone in the industry? I would have some hesitation submitting without a sense for who is behind it.

Yeah same here, I'm a bit nervous giving out my personal information to perfect strangers. Is this site legitimate?

Appreciate the concern. This is a collaboration between ideaphore (the co-invention platform and service) and hard-ip.net (patent agent firm). Both companies were founded by people who are passionate about innovation and putting an end to predatory patent trolling. We're committed to making this work if people really want it. We'll do our best to protect your personal information.

Good idea. But definitely need

- A FAQ. Trust is a big deal here. Why trust you?

- HTTPS

- An overview of options for your target customer. The reason someone will need your service is because they've just received a letter claiming patent infringement. A basic tutorial on "what you can do when you get a patent infringement letter" would be pretty useful.

Thanks! That's really helpful. We'll add all of these things.

FAQ added, SSL added, resources and guides coming later today. Thanks again for your input.

How's this any better than https://trollingeffects.org/

On trolling effects, uploaded demand letters are displayed publicly. Small business owners (targets) are worried that the trolls will retaliate if they find out the target is looking to fight back. We will not post your demand letters, but will instead confidentially match you with others who have received similar letters. Also, we will provide a private collaboration environment where all participants sign an NDA and fundraising tools.

This is a brilliant idea. How is the site funded?

They have a kickstarter-like system and take a cut of the legal fees, it looks like.

This is true. During the early days, we will also have to charge a small monthly fee for members during the pendency of their fight. We hope to remove the fee later, if possible.

In what manner could trolls retaliate if they find out the target wants to fight the case? Couldn't the trolls just pretend like they got a lawsuit on this site, and then be matched with the confidential other parties?

When trolls send demand letters, they make it sound like it's in your best interests to settle for a license fee quickly before they start suing people. Don't ask too many questions, just fork over some cash. And it might well be in your best interests, you won't know until you know what others who received the letter are doing. But if you tell a troll that you are thinking of fighting their patent, they tend to become irate, raise the settlement figure, threaten to sue, or file suit. We think that this is why there have not been many submissions on trollingeffects. We will do our best to screen members to make sure that they are from bona fide companies that received a letter. I gave a bit more detail on this in a question above.

If you're going to fight, why does it matter what their settlement figure is?

It's good to leave that option open, where possible. We would not want anyone to abandon it. For instance, if an IPR fails to invalidate a patent, the fight becomes much harder. And not all demand letters are unfair assertions of patent rights, some are legitimate. It's important to find out what other similarly situated businesses plan to do, but that doesn't mean you won't end up settling.

Well, they're not technically irate, they're simulating anger as a rhetorical tactic. These are tactics of manipulation.

Does your service do the matching and hosting of files on an internet-connected machine? How do you ensure confidentiality?

I don't want to pick nits too much, but no https?

On it. Will switch over.

SSL added.

Joint defense groups are great for saving money on these things.

Having been in several, I've noticed a few areas to navigate carefully. It's worth making sure that everyone is comfortable with the strategy. Assuming the group tries to kill the patent, the acts of the group may limit what the individuals can do later in their defense, e.g., a weak group effort could prevent an individual from later asserting certain invalidity grounds. See e.g., part e of https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/315. On the other hand, often some group members don't want to pay their share for a gold-plated attack, e.g., those on a tighter budget or with less exposure.

I wouldn't let that deter me, though, from seeking a joint defense group. This seems like a great idea.

That's sage advice right there. Would love to chat more, if you have the time. You know where to find us.

This looks like a great product. Perhaps there's a lot of potential for add-on services, that might reduce the hefty 2million$ cost of litigation.

Indeed. In fact, filing an inter-partes review, something our partner Hard-IP is very good at, is significantly cheaper than litigation in federal court. Also, with a large enough joint defense group, we may be able to negotiate arbitration or mediation (we would recommend baseball style mediation).

Nice, should make one of these for bittorrent swarms too!

If you haven't didn't seed, or didn't seed the whole file, it would be easy to tear apart the case. One federal court circuit created "contributory copyright infringement", which is not a creature of the legislation at all, but even that is on weak legs, assuming you ever got to court.

That's an interesting idea. But it doesn't quite translate because each individual copyright infringement case has its own facts, you either did it or not. With patent infringement, the validity of the patent affects every potential plaintiff the same way. But it's something to consider in the future. Thanks.

Is this idea patented? It might be a trap.

Admiral Ackbar? Is that you?

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