When Refrigeration Was Controversial | Hacker News Reader

When Refrigeration Was Controversial

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54 pointssamclemens61 comments

Refrigation also put good, hardworking ice dealers out of business in NYC. Of course, the ice business was controlled by the mafia, but that's just market forces at work.

If that had happened in 2016, MA would be taxing GE to pay off the ice mafia.

Eggs are rarely sold refrigerated in France, so I don't see why they're taking eggs as an example. Definitely not a seasonal thing in France :D

Refrigerating eggs is not 'ubiquitous' as mentioned in the article, the US is more then exception than the norm[1] here.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/09/11/336330502/why...

Yes, was going to mention this... Using eggs was probably the worst example they could come up with. I mean looking at the hatchery photo, most people across the world would see anything strange with it.

But since this predates modern breeds, it sounds like they were keeping eggs for up to a year. Surely unrefrigerated eggs don't last that long.

True, unrefrigerated eggs only last for 3 weeks. But if I remember correctly, even with refrigeration, eggs cannot last more than 6 weeks and still be safe to consume. So, I'm a bit skeptical about keeping the eggs up to a year like this..

Of course, there's always preserved eggs which are quite delicious :-)

Do you have any thing to back up this claim? I've kept chickens for 15+ years.

I don't wash, nor refrigerate my eggs. I regularly keep eggs longer than three weeks. There was a whole box i consumed once that was at least 6 months old. Not one egg was bad, although they were "drier" then usual.

Bad eggs are incredibly easy to detect. They don't smell right.

You can also dunk eggs in some water. If they float, they're bad. If they sink, you're good to go. It's so easy to do that I always check before I eat an egg.

Nope, I based myself only on the guidelines given in EU for unrefrigerated eggs... Good to know that I was wrong and thanks for the clarification.

Here in New Zealand it's abut 50/50 whether a household refrigerates eggs. I don't think it's a requirement for restaurants to do so either.

Apparently all eggs in Australia and New Zealand are pasteurised [0]. <edit> looks like I need to work on my critical reading, only egg _products_ like egg whites need to be pasteurised, eggs don't.

Personally, I don't refigerate my eggs, but I tend to go them pretty quickly. I've had them out in the kitchen for over a month before, and they've been fine (it was the middle of winter and a very cold kitchen).

[0]: http://www.foodsafety.govt.nz/industry/sectors/poultry-eggs/...

Definitely no requirement to refridgrate eggs in NZ, they're sold unrefrigrated.

After laying eggs are lightly brushed clean, date stamped and packaged, there is no other treatment.

Shelf life is around 3 months, normally about a month beyond the best before date.

Dunno why but Australia has moved to selling them refrigerated, but maybe 10 years ago they used to be sold at room temperature

Its all about the washing apparently. In USA they are required to be washed, so their sanitary sealed shell is compromised, so refrigeration.

Yeah, if you don't remove the membrane from the egg during processing, they are fine at room temperature for a very long time.

Same for Russia, Italy, and Spain from what I've seen. Though (anecdotally), I remember my sister leaving some throwin' eggs to funk up next to our house in order to pursue a feud with the local paper boy, so they're not totally indestructable.

From what I've read, in the US eggs are washed and sprayed with sanitizer, to reduce risk of salmonella infection. Unfortunately, this increases the chances of bacteria seeping into the egg through the shell, as the shell's outside layers are damaged during washing.

In most European countries, salmonella is controlled in place of production, and egg production at least in the Nordics is salmonella free. There are strict controls and regulations in place to keep it that way. In this environment, the risks associated with egg washing outweigh the advantages.

You can actually dip your eggs in mineral oil to recoat them! Then you can leave them out refrigerated just fine.

And turn the carton upside down every week or so, and you can keep them for 6 months or so ( I have heard)

This is interesting, because I don't understand why turning eggs would increase their shelf life. Does anyone know if this is actually works, and why?

I haven't tried, but supposedly the yolk slowly moves to the bottom. Soon after it touches the inside of the shell, it's game over. Inverting the eggs regularly keeps the yolks in the middle.

This is cool. I go through about 30 eggs a week though, so normal shelf life is pretty good for me.

Why are eggs sold in Denmark refrigerated?

This surprised me, since I'm from the UK where they're kept at room temperature on a supermarket shelf.

As far as I know, in Denmark, eggs are produced unwashed and salmonella free. Supermarkets (unnecessarily) refrigerate them because customers expect that.

Also true in Norway and Sweden. The funniest part is that IIRC, the "best before" date is based on storage at room temperature, due to EU regulations, but everyone in the Nordic countries keeps them refrigerated.

But I thought Denmark had more of an issue with egg salmonella than Sweden and Norway? I've seen Danish cooking shows where they take care to use pasteurised eggs/yolks whenever they're not cooked in a recipe (like for mayonnaise), but never in Norway or Sweden.

In Finland, some stores might stash eggs in refridgerated sections but overwhelmingly they're kept in room temperature. Salmonella is virtually non-existent in Finland. Eggs can generally be consumed even raw. That is because of a special stricter-than-usual control of poultry and egg production which effectively means that only Swedish and Danish eggs meet the import standards. Yet no eggs are imported to Finland anyway and the country is actually a net exporter.

Plenty of eggs are sold in room temperature in both Norway and Sweden. And neither country utilizes refrigerated transports, so there is no unbroken cold chain.

Isn't there natural refrigeration in those countries most of the year?

You can't put eggs outside in winter, frozen eggs crack

Although eggs are displayed on a (non-refrigerated) shelf in UK supermarkets, if you look at the egg carton, they all state the eggs should be refrigerated after purchase.

Presumably this is because eggs stay fresher longer in a cool environment and keeping them in the fridge is the easiest way to do this if you don't have some other cool storage space?

I would venture a guess that this is a case of “better safe than sorry”, although admittedly I don't know what the exact verbiage on an UK egg carton is.

Some supermarkets may decide to refrigerate the eggs, even if it is unnecessary. The shell of a cold egg will get wet when it warms up (condensation), and bacteria on the shell will thrive. This could lead to dangerous levels of contamination on the shell, and some of it might make it's way in your body.

I live in Cyprus where the current temperature is 38c and eggs are not being sold refrigerated but we dorefrigerate them at home to extend their lifetime.

Fun fact: EU eggs would be illegal to sell in the US (because they aren't washed) and US eggs would be illegal to sell in the EU (because they are washed) :)

Correct. Americans wash them for the same reasons that Europeans do not - to keep them free from salmonella. Obviously the E.U. way is much better and in keeping with nature (as if there is nature in any food production).

Hopefully some egg historian can chime in and shed some light on how the Chicken Tax relates to this, however, battery farming started in the U.S. and exports almost put European chicken farmers out of business. Before that happened, chicken was something that people ate once or twice a year, on special occasions rather than several times a day.

What I found fascinating about the article was the idea that eggs were once seasonal, this I never knew. However, now I know this, the Easter 'egg' thing (which has nothing to do with the Baby Jesus) seems to make sense as yet another Pagan tradition co-opted by the holy ones. I do like it when I have such a new insight to explore.

Without the trip, same thing with US eggs and Mexico eggs. You can go a mile across the border and get different style eggs.

If anything refrigerating eggs is a negative thing, as they'll slowly take on hints of flavour from the other things in your fridge.

Do non-refrigerated eggs somehow and magically not take hints of flavour from other things nearby? Or is there something about not refrigerating eggs that allows you to place them away from anything else that has an odour? I find this comment thoroughly confusing.

Fridges are tightly enclosed small spaces that will allow the odours of last night's left over Vindaloo to reach appreciable density and stay there all night. Fridges often contain leftovers and high odour items, sometimes for extended periods. On an open shelf in the kitchen this is far less likely - odours dissipate and are only around for the hour or whatever that you're cooking meals.

To add another egg-anecdote from another country: In German facilities like retirement homes eggs are not allowed inside the kitchen. They have to be prepared at a separate location like the basement, transported into the kitchen inside a cooking pot and put directly on the stove.

Better safe than sorry? Are the handlers required to wear the rubber cloves during the operation?

I think so, but I am not sure. I worked as a janitor during civil service and there were lots of these rules, some very sensible, some not so much: I had to wear a white coat over my regular clothes, when entering the kitchen. That my private clothes were washed more regularly or that I sometimes had to move around garbage wearing the exact same coat (sent by other people) did not matter.

You cannot imagine an environment more regulated. The nurses were trained to tick boxes to a ridiculous level: I still remember how a nurse answered a question like "You come in, the patient is not breathing. What do you do?" during a first aid course with: "Measure blood pressure."

My grandparents have chickens and they don't need "artificial light" to be tricked in to laying eggs.

Here in Europe we still keep them eggs at room temperature, which is a bit of an interesting cultural trivia itself http://www.latimes.com/food/dailydish/la-dd-heres-why-we-nee...

Well, I live in Spain and we put the eggs in the fridge.

are them sold in supermarket from cold storage, or do you put them in fridge after going home?

Europe? Really?

Here in Germany, all people I know put their eggs into the fridge.

Egg cartons in Germany usually have two dates printed on them, one of them being the date after which it is recommended to put them into the fridge (18 days after they were stolen from the hen).

If you bring them home. In the supermarket eggs are not refrigerated normally where I live.

Indeed, they are in the fridge only at home, not in the supermarket.

It's fun to be reminded of controversy that happened outside of modern memory.

You don't need to refrigerate eggs. They will last for months unrefrigerated.

I'm in the US and I haven't refrigerated eggs in years. Yes, you can buy them refrigerated from the store and just leave them out - absolutely nothing bad will happen.

The only risk is salmonella and that is solved by buying a brand that vaccinates their chickens. (About 50% of US chickens are vaccinated against salmonella so it's not hard to find a good brand.)

I didn't know there was a vaccine for that! If we vaccinated all the chickens would it kill off salmonella the way human diseases have been eradicated?

Salmonella can infect all animals, so you can not eradicate it this way.

But you can stop it being a problem in human food. Which happened in Europe already and would happen in the US if consumers would demand only vaccinated eggs.

SMH To think with our agriculture we use too many antibiotics and not enough vaccines. How backwards is that...

Most antibiotic use in animals is not for treating disease, it's for weight gain.

In fact, when they first came out the salesmen would use them and get fatter, then have a weigh-in at annual sales meetings! What a vivid demonstration of the benefits of antibiotics. Imagine trying that today.

Many frogs and reptiles carry salmonella, so total eradication would require much more than vaccinating chickens.

Most pets also carry salmonella.. That's one of the diseases you can get by not washing your hands after touching your pet.

For eggs right out of the chicken, that is correct. However, in the US almost all eggs sold commercially have been washed with a detergent solution to clean them and make them more uniform and appealing. This washing process removes a natural coating on the outside of the egg that makes them more vulnerable to spoilage if they are not refrigerated.

If you buy your eggs from a supplier that doesn't wash the eggs, then you can leave then in the counter for a long time. If you buy then at the supermarket, they have likely been cleaned in a way that makes it dangerous to leave them at room temperature for an extended amount of time.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/09/11/336330502/why...

I read that article too, and it's just wrong [in that part].

They replace the coating with another one that works better than the original (the original needs to allow oxygen into the egg, the replacement does not).

The worry about condensation is nothing - otherwise every person why buys eggs and leaves them in their car or kitchen for an hour would have a problem - but they don't.

The natural coating is not magic, it's just some oil, it's not a big deal to wash it and replace it with something else.

As I said, the only real worry is salmonella.

> more vulnerable to spoilage if they are not refrigerated.

I have left US store bought eggs unrefrigerated in VERY hot (90-110F) weather for 2 months without having a single spoiled egg. (I had a deal on some cases of eggs.)

So no, it does not leave them vulnerable.

It's amazing just how ingrained Americans are that eggs have to be refrigerated, every person I tell this to, first refuses to believe me, then they do a google search and find that same inaccurate article you found, then they [sometimes] try it, and then they believe. (I used to be one of them too :)

Man time travel would really suck when you find out about 'the controversy' of the day

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