Low-income students can soon get federal aid to attend coding schools | Hacker News Reader

Low-income students can soon get federal aid to attend coding schools

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28 pointsmichaelrkn48 comments

This reminds me of those University of Phoenix MBAs a few years ago.

I don't know what it'll take to fix higher education in the US, but opening up public funding options to for profit companies that already have issues on placement and average salary statistics[0] doesn't look like it's the right approach.

0 - http://www.businessinsider.com/coding-bootcamps-have-no-stan...

This is not a good idea.

I've been part of the hiring committees at a handful of companies and there is a big difference between coding schools and real degrees.

That being said, I've yet to interview a candidate who attending a coding school who truly understands software development at any acceptable level to be hired. Maybe for basic web design and very limited front end work these people will find jobs but I fear they will be severely disappointed when trying to make a career.

I'd say a bootcamper is good for about $24,000 a year to be an apprentice and actually learn on the job.

I've recently taught myself programming and am now working as an apprentice at a local web firm. Can you point to some specific concepts you think I might have missed?

So, there is a difference between a boot camper and someone who is self taught. I started out as self-taught, and have since then taken courses/advanced studies to further my own knowledge.

The path you're on is very similar to the one I took. Been an apprentice or Jr developer is a smart, smart path to take.

Concepts that I've seen missed in recent code interviews: - I know "Node", but what is the V8 engine? I've seen this a lot as Node has gotten more and more popular. It's critical, at least in my opinion, to understand at the bare minimum how Node works under the hood. Writing a few web apps with a basic set of Node APIs is great, but do you actually understand what is going on? - AngularJS. Have you looked at the source code? Do you understand how directives work? Can you explain how the digest loop works? Can you explain the use cases for two-way binding? Why wouldn't you need two-way binding? - VanillaJS - Can you write out some basic ways to manipulate the DOM without the use of jQuery or another framework? Do you understand how event listeners and event propagation works?

Those are just some of things that come to my mind right away.

There's also a point to be made that it is easier to trust that someone who spent 4 years in coursework is committed to the career versus someone who took 3-5 months doing a boot camp.

Thanks very much for your suggestions! I think learning about event listeners/propagation is particularly relevant.

You might like What Do I Need to Know to Ace a JavaScript Interview?[1] I have been learning JavaScript on my own for about 1 year now. I put together that list of links as I reviewed for a coding job. I had bookmarked a lot of things I thought were important or I kept returning to. They didn't offer me a job coding JavaScript. At the end of 2 hour interview they said they would hire me if I took a month or two to learn Go. (If you are in South Florida, Delivery Dudes is hiring Go coders BTW) I love JavaScript and several months later I'm still not getting paid. I regret not taking that job now, but I want to finish what I started.

I can't imagine being useful to anyone with a 3-5 months boot camp.

[1] https://github.com/adam-s/js-interview-review

I've worked with one who became an exceptional backend coder straight out of the code school. This is out of maybe six total and she had some excellent mentorship at the first job. Another had great frontend skills within a few months.

Why does the government think software development jobs can be done by the equivalent of people who have gone to a trade school for one semester? I don't see the government pushing finance career or lawyer boot camps. I wonder how the DOE even made the decision of which boot camps to partner with.

Cool, can you point me to some lawyer bootcamps, this whole time I thought that was a heavily regulated industry that required degrees and a bar exam to be qualified. Really stoked to let my wife know she didn't need to take those CPA exams to practice too.

My understanding is you can actually take the bar exam in several states without having attended law school. Regulations can always be changed, I don't see groups or the government pushing to liberalize training requirements and allow boot camps to train someone to take these tests.

It varies state by state but yes, in some states you can take the BAR exam without attending law school. In California, for example, you have to apprentice for a practicing lawyer for four years and have five years experience practicing (18 hrs per week) before you can take the test

Where are the grants to train financial traders, corporate lawyers, C-suite "captains of industry", politicians, etc? Or simply doctors, engineers, etc?

Those groups don't want to be inundated with new recruits, depressing their salaries, not to mention standards, you say?

I see.

Lawyers, doctors and engineers all have strong unions (even if they don't call themselves one).

As "coding" becomes increasingly mainstream, tools and automation grow in sophistication, Moore's Law dwindles, and problems become exhausted and are not replaced (e.g., move the entire economy onto the web) - I worry that this profession is overhyped. These kids might be late to the race.

Indeed, even late to the party.

I think this is a step in the right direction to address the issue of computer science education and/or coding classes only being accessible to kids from privileged backgrounds. Ultimately, if this is successful (and I know I'm wishing too much at this point), it can lead to greater diversity in the tech workforce or even in academia.

Why in the fuck is diversity a "thing"?

Algorithimic and behavioral diversity maybe. But this bullshit kumbaya bullshit where team composition has to reflect a skin color ratio that's suitable for an ad exec's eye is fucking worthless.

I've been "lower income". I've been fucking homeless. You're training technical monkey to do technical jobs. No problem with that but don't fucking be "greater diversity blah blah blah".

It's a thing because many people have complained, they're pretty persuasive, and at least some of us have started listening.

I think there are merits to diversity but of course there are also merits to a fully meritocratic system. But I think the ideal situation would be having a fully meritocratic system that has this "diversity" attribute. I feel as though that is a step up from a fully meritocratic system that has virtually no diversity.

Also, perhaps having diversity would allow for the development of new types of products and services in the tech industry that the "privileged" have no interest in. At least that's what people who call for diversity claim.

I also agree that there are merits to diversity, it's just that the negatives of forced diversity outweigh the positives.

Yea I can see that. It does make me question every government policy or "handout" that aims to promote diversity, but I'm wondering whether this government policy of providing financial aid to low income students is one that is "forcing" diversity. Could someone clarify for me?

Proponents of diversity engage in non-Bayesian updating whereby if a non-diverse company/city/person does well, they update their prior that the system is rigged, but if a diverse company/city/person does well update their prior that diversity has economic benefits.

computer science education and/or coding classes only being accessible to kids from privileged backgrounds

You are full of bs.

I'd forgotten computer science was only taught in Ivy League schools and top 15 universities.

They definitely can't take this same money (Pell Grant / federal student loans) and apply it to a local community college / public state university and get a CS education there.

I'd forgotten computer science was only taught in Ivy League schools and top 15 universities.

I think at quite a few companies this is certainly the case.

I grew up dirt poor and taught myself (no CS degree here; I started my career before "bootcamps"). I am a white male, so I guess you can claim I had some special privilege or whatever is the SJW thing to say, but that was about it (my family had no car, no computer, no air conditioning, etc)

Oh not at al! I don't mean diversity strictly by skin color or race. I mainly mean economically underprivileged!

Perhaps I'm an extreme edge case, but I'm a counter-example to economic status.

Privileged backgrounds? Anyone with a cheap internet connection and a cheap computer (~$100) has everything they need to start learning.

Can you name a single industry that is more accessible?

This is nonsense. We need diversity of opinions, thoughts and processes...not skin color, sex or wealth.

Sure we want equal opportunity to all. But that doesn't mean equal outcome. The outcome should only be based on merit.

Here come the grifters! The U.S really needs a counterpart to the U.K's Ofsted agency to do summary executions of substandard education providers.

It's hard to ignore that after all that's come out against for-profit private schools in the US really exploiting these sort of aid programs. Then they have a third-party rating agency coming in and that's supposed to make us all feel better. Will saturating this market make it any better? Are we already at capacity for meaningful classes into potentially meaningful jobs? It's too hard to say.

Oh great more developer puppy mills, except this time secured by the federal government!

What a great handout.

And chances are the costs of these schools will inflate now that there's free money on the table, just like with regular universities.

Yes, that's my exact concern.

The good ones will do well for a while until the bad ones get better at marketing. As they get better at marketing, more dollars will go to them and draw people who don't have the aptitude to be successful in the field. Then those people will - rightfully! - be pissed when they don't get $100k+ jobs and demand that "something be done about this!" And then the good schools will get screwed.

I'd rather see a salary-based payback program where a candidate pays back X% over the next N years, up to $Y.

That might motivate the schools to help in placement and encourage them to teach how to stay relevant beyond the JS framework of the week.

> more dollars will go to them and draw people who don't have the aptitude to be successful in the field. Then those people will - rightfully! - be pissed when they don't get $100k+ jobs and demand that "something be done about this!"

I don't think those WITH the aptitude are qualified for a $100K job. For those who know just what they learned at a bootcamp, I'd think they're prepared for a $20-30K job where they apprentice and OJT their way up to the junior level.

Worried about your job, angersock?

I don't think any professional developer is worried about losing their job to a bootcamper who hasn't had at least two years of OJT.

I am actually. I've seen many jobs go to cheaper on-shored labour with no regard for quality or technical ability. I've seen many millions of dollars pissed away and removed from the investment pool.

That money could have been spent on competent people and the investors may have even come out with something to show for it.

Quite the opposite.

Consider the folks who are signing up for this--people who by definition either don't have the background required to do this industry work or who are returning to retrain.

In either case, they are probably not going to be making top wages starting out, and with the federal aid assistance the prices for bootcamps across the board will go up. So, they'll have a larger amount of debt to pay back if they get a job--at the exact same time the competition for the types of jobs they are trained for increases dramatically.

It's a setup, and I hope a bunch of people don't get burned.

Prepare for the rapid inflation of coding school tuitions.

Is anyone actually hiring people solely on them having completed a coding bootcamp?

Yes, the coding bootcamps hire them as instructors so they can keep their marketing claims about job placement true.

Just what low income students are looking for.

So more discrimination. Yes!

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