While HN does stay civil, I think it is too limited in general. Don't get me wrong, the reason I use HN is because the discussion hasn't devolved into /. or reddit. However, HN would do well to encourage dissent.
I also get that HN, being mostly about tech startups, has different priorities than me personally.
I am forever in search of a place online to have good discussions and debate with a respectful community. The comment sections on news sites are rarely the place — even for very respectable publications. I'm fully in favor of NPR's move and other sites should follow.
Can you give some examples where someone criticized Musk and was downvoted?
[edit, adding a link to a comment]
Here is one (th13's reply was downvoted): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11030447
(This is more tedious than I thought, I'll see if I can dig up some more. Looks like in the future I should make note of these as I see them.)
[edit, adding a second link to a comment]
You may need to follow the 'parent' link to see the telltale gray of the downvote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10775287
(Seriously, this is tedious. I know there are more, but I won't dig up anymore unless I'm pressured to do so.)
An hyperloop is going to be a regrettable experience for everyone involved.
I think the fact that it's difficult to find examples of this is proof that there's not as much of a slant as you think there is.
Greying is one of the key factors in the anti-dissent, party-line mode here, which I've noticed as well. It was weird to pull scores and then implicitly put them back with greying, so you can at least tell if a comment is <= 0. One difference from Reddit is that Reddit explicitly suggests[0] that you not downvote to register disagreement, whereas HN does not take a stand and pg clarified that he's fine with it a long time ago[1]. So that ties together voting and agreement, which then ties together greying and agreement, which helps gives rise to the anti-dissent environment you're observing.
I'd love to see some analysis on whether a grey comment is more likely to be downvoted, as well, because I'm almost positive it is. Once someone hits me with a 0, which is discernible as slightly greyer by itself, that comment is almost guaranteed to end up very negative.
My opinions often diverge from HN and I am rewarded with barely-visible commentary very often, so I've been trained over time to resent voting rather than wish to contribute here, which I don't think is the spirit nor the intent of the greying feature. I don't think HN wants to be an echo chamber, to be clear, it's just that the quirks of the system create incentives that give rise to it. The last thing on planet Earth that I care about is my karma score, but I do care that what I say matters, and I cannot really talk about it because it sounds like complaining about downvoting.
[0]: https://www.reddit.com/wiki/reddiquette#wiki_in_regard_to_vo...
Two years ago I did an analysis of HN comment scores (back when they were publicly accessible). There are far fewer comments with -1 score than with 0 score: http://minimaxir.com/img/hn-comments/distribution_comment_po...
Slashdot used to be a great place (like HN was a few years ago), and many of the best moderation systems originated there.
Meta-moderation kept everything fair because you could moderate the moderators. The way it worked was that people with high karma would get asked at the top of their page to please take time and meta-moderate 10 comments a day. You get presented with 10 random comments and the moderation +/-, and simply check a radio button indicating whether the moderation was fair or unfair.
The way it was enforced, I assume, is that people who were meta-moderated as unfair too often would lose their ability to moderate completely.
Ultimately, the question is whether negatives of people who down vote on disagreement (as opposed to more objective items, such as lack of evidence for assertions or overly personal and/or aggressive comments) outweighs the benefit of a very effective way for the community to self moderate, given there is occasional pushback against subjective down voting when it happens.
The problem will of course seem larger if some of the common community views conflict with your own, and you've been subjected to the consequences of this. This is countered by the human tendency (IMO) to view unexplained negativity as unwarranted. Were you downvoted because your comment was lacking in some regard, or because you stepped into a pet issue of the community. It's easier to believe the second, and while it is the case sometimes, it's hard to tell what is perception and what is reality.
Sure, I'd grant that as intent, but where this falls down is that it instead incentivizes me to just not be a part of the community. Why would I put care and work into a comment if I'm going to be rewarded by the time invested becoming essentially worthless? Arguably, silencing someone because they diverged from "community norms" is slightly hostile; I have a hard time believing your position that a community is served well by being built atop hostile moderation. You might build a community, but it might be a much smaller, much less desirable community. (I don't know.) It's also a weird incentive to throw down, as you allude to, because "acceptable opinion" and "acceptable comment" are extremely conflated. So now one finds oneself writing comments that contain acceptable opinions, which is the care in crafting that you're describing.
Look, the opinion of HN from outside and the opinion of HN from inside are wildly different. I think this community tells itself things about civility, moderation, and so on; your comment sounds good, for example! It's just slightly off-base and overlooks some consequences, and it's not obviously wrong because we're within HN discussing it.
> Were you downvoted because your comment was lacking in some regard, or because you stepped into a pet issue of the community. It's easier to believe the second, and while it is the case sometimes, it's hard to tell what is perception and what is reality.
Careful; this is lightly making the case that I'm unable to discern the difference and therefore off-base for criticizing a real issue. I can't prove this to you, but trust me when I say that I can tell when I've "earned" the downvotes. And I do, occasionally.
(And, were I less civil, I'd use colorful four-letter words to describe community "norms," as I'd hope any hacker would. I didn't become a hacker because I cared about normality.)
It is slightly hostile. It's also how groups enforce culture and less codified systems of conduct. Not only in the active consequences to the offender, but in the visible consequences to others. I think it works in some cases, and does not in others. in the case of HN, it's ham-fisted, but I doubt more intricate systems that allow people to choose levels of response would actually work at all, given the amount of time people are generally willing to spend on such things (and the variability in the scale and type of response based on initial state).
> It's also a weird incentive to throw down, as you allude to, because "acceptable opinion" and "acceptable comment" are extremely conflated. So now one finds oneself writing comments that contain acceptable opinions, which is the care in crafting that you're describing.
I'm not really sure what you mean by the first portion of that sentence. I do agree one can find themselves writing comments that conform to opinion and not just just an accepted method of argumentation. That's up to you to combat on your own, here, as the rules are now. People will value different aspects of discussion than you, and you have to deal with that in every discussion anyway. When speaking about something you know your audience is sensitive to, you either make some level of effort to present it in a way that minimizes miscommunication and irrational reaction, or you don't. That's true of every singe instance of communication, I'm not sure why we would expect the problem to be solved here for some reason.
> Careful; this is lightly making the case that I'm unable to discern the difference and therefore off-base for criticizing a real issue.
It most definitely is not. It's making a case that people, in general, are bad at this in my opinion, because it challenges their view of themselves. That doesn't mean you are off-base, that doesn't mean it's not a real issue (I did agree with you, for example), but that the level of importance you attribute to this phenomenon is highly subjective. We agree there's a problem, I think we disagree on the scope and whether it outweighs the benefits imparted, and this is meant as a possible explanation of why why disagree.
> (And, were I less civil, I'd use colorful four-letter words to describe community "norms," as I'd hope any hacker would. I didn't become a hacker because I cared about normality.)
I assume you became a hacker because you like to know how things work. I like to know how things work. "Norms" (culture), are about how groups of people work, or more specifically, it's the informal rules they establish to allow interoperability. The "standards" (in the IEEE sense) by which we are enabled to build our more complex system on top of. Sure, there are negative aspects, such inefficiencies, cruft, and errors, but it's allowed us to get to where we are, so I'm disinclined to view them quite as negatively as you seem to. Something better may come along, but given the irrationality of all people, I'm not sure it will work if it's all that different. I'm interested in hearing alternatives though.
Just offering my perspective.
Exactly, you have to care about what you say, and that's exactly why I love HN comments so much. Also, you make it sounds like there are such great comments that disappear because of the downvotes, but it's not the case. The only disappearing comments are stupid jokes or trolls. I don't remember any well-argued position that I was unable to read because of the downvote.
This is not only completely false, it's rapidly provable as completely false. You are, quite literally, lying to yourself. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, discussion on controversial issues is Exhibit A.
But, yes, both downvoting and flagging can and have been abused here, despite measures to prevent them.
One need only look at the number of articles that deal with ideas like basic income, regulatory responses to climate, energy, or finance, public transport, or other areas where systematic centrally planned responses are supported as being the way forward and you can't help but see that progressivism is the larger ideal supported here.
It's hardly surprising though. This is group of professionals that engages in build systems to tackle problems in new ways. We convince ourselves that we're the disruptors who's vision can change industries and our way of life. A natural extension of that viewpoint is to believe that the public sphere can be molded, too, if only the right programs are put into effect under the watchful eye of intelligent and visionary custodians... which has much in common with progressivism.
Of course, that's my personal viewpoint (and I am certainly not a "progressive").
It tends to be supported by some more pragmatic libertarians, who recognize that some form of welfare is necessary, and see UBI as the least-overhead form that, if not the cheapest economically, keeps the associated bureaucracy (and the government sprawl induced by that) to the minimum.
However, it is also a popular idea on the left, especially among the more individualist-minded liberals, left libertarians etc.
Basic income would mean that part of GDP is redistributed in purely democratic manner - everybody gets the same piece of pie, whether they deserve it or not. It's very similar to democracy, but on economic level. And democracy is in fact very leftist idea (if you look at history of the left), because again, it proposes that all people should the exact same political power (one person, one vote), regardless what they are or what they do or contribute.
The fact that today's right (at least partially) accepts some of these ideas, such as democracy or UBI, is actually a success of left, or manifestation of the reality having a liberal bias. :-)
Not sure about that, could you find one such comment? Many people would upvote any greyed comment that comes with substantive arguments, regardless of their political view.
Absolutely true. But is HN more closed minded than the folks you see everyday?
Personally, the HN community is more open minded than 95% of the people I personally interact with daily -- even after including what you've just mentioned.
Not to knock the Anti-GMO argument[0], but it's similar to other conspiracy arguments. I can make so many rational arguments against it, but I know from the outset if I see a comment that says "Well of course the Hyper Loop isn't going to work, it was designed by Lizard people in order to keep us complacent!" I know that I will never convince that person to see what I would consider a rational viewpoint. It's a lost cause. And as I user of HN, I would consider such comments to be noise, and I would downvote them.
Edit: I have the unpopular opinion (at least on HN) of not liking the "right to be forgotten", not to tangent too much, but I think that the ability to substantially change as a person is an important concept of human development, and that by allowing people to willfully scrub their actions from the record, they encourage the myth that people can't change, and that we're always how we currently are. And that, I think, trains people to be less forgiving. It's harder to forgive when you don't think someone can change.
[0]: although I do disagree with it (even beyond the screaming naturalistic fallacies)
Edit: To put it another way, I'll bet short term studies concluded that asbestos was "safe" to use as a building material. In the long run though, that didn't really turn out to be the case.
The problem is treating GMOs as a category. Maybe there's good reason to be concerned that genetic modificiations that make crops less attractive to pests are hazardous to long-term health (I have no idea if there are), but what does that concern have to do with the risk of introducing genes to grow larger fruits?
I'm sure you can find reasons to be worried about any possible application of genetic engineering, but if you're willing to get that creative, you can find reason to be worried about any agricultural innovations. Maybe you claim that the introduction of a lentil gene to soy will indirectly create come carcinogen through protein interactions, but why don't you worry about the same issue when a new fertilizer is introduced? It seems to me that it's only because transgenic plants are new and scary and people are uneasy about "playing god".
Asbestos was ALWAYS known to be dangerous [1] so not a great example. I can't think of a case off the top of my head where long-term safety was incorrectly assumed from short-term studies. Perhaps some medicines? Anyway, in principle you're right that short term studies say little about long term impacts on health.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#Discovery_of_toxicity
Off the top of my head, there are several consequences that fall into the realm of possibility. Larger fruits will require more resources from the host plant, which could alter its development in unpredictable ways. More nutrients could be taken from the soil in order to make larger fruits, leading to earlier depletion and requiring more crop rotation (a process many farmers put off due to profits). Larger fruits will attract larger animals to graze (just look at what happens when hikers throw apple cores / other compost into the woods, it alters the movement patterns of multiple species).
I understand these examples sound hyperbolic, and I think GMO's are definitely beneficial in some situations. However, introducing changes to the very genetics of our ecosystem faster than they would naturally occur has definite effects. To think that we can adequately anticipate, react, and solve issues caused by these effects seems a bit hopeful, at least until we have a very advanced computational model simulation of our ecosystem.
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should." - Ian, Jurassic Park
For most of human society, memory was constrained to the brain, which fuzzily remembers at best, and within mere years only can make summaries of past events.
Now with high quality video from phones, voice records, and text preserved in perpetuity, people can not only merely remember a person held inane ideas, but also see exactly what, when, and in which context they held those ideas.
So long as that's possible, it's easy for others to critique by saying "people can change, but X person said Y and that's beyond the event horizon for me".
I wish downvoting wouldn't be allowed without a "reply" to parent post, that way if I'm being downvoted nonstop I know why. Sometimes I get downvoted like crazy and have no clue as to why. Or even if I guess it doesn't add to the conversation to just shut me out because you disagree without teaching me why. I wonder how HN would be different if to downvote you had to respond to a post.
But not sure if those ideas for technical focus (with "right" A to the Q) website can be easily applied to more political website such as NPR.
I think the real issue of requiring comments on downvotes is that it would either disallow anonymous downvotes, or encourage anonymous comments. Perhaps de-anonymizing downvotes without requiring a comment might be a better first step: if you aren't brave enough to have your name associated with the downvote, then maybe you shouldn't be downvoting. I'm sure this would cause its own problems, but I suspect it would be a net positive. At times I think it might even be good to have all voting and flagging actions on HN to be public record.
On HN, unpopular comments are, often, still voted down despite the facts and despite the presentation.
I usually reserve these instances for when I know more than a little on the topic, generally professionally speaking, and often first hand. But, if it is unpopular, it doesn't matter. It's predictable.
1. there are replies and up-voting, but no down-voting;
2. you can classify a comment reply, at time of posting, as a "rebuttal";
3. up-voting a rebuttal comment will also be considered as down-voting its parent;
4. the aggregate score of a subthread is calculated as a Euclidean distance, with all the positively-scored comments as dimensions. Thus, if you've got one great comment made in response to a bad comment, the thread will stay un-collapsed; if you've got two equally-great comments, the thread will rise, etc. (Likewise, if you've got good discussion happening in response to a really bad post, the discussion's value will still propel the post to the hot page.)
I wonder if the problem is the binary nature of so many things. 5 star/1 star reviews are the most common, we have up and down votes, but no real context for that. I wonder if the problem that needs to be solved isn't context, rather than directional.
This is me spitballing, so feel free to IGNORE everything below.
I was listening to the Freakonomics podcast on proper voting (e.g. elections) the other day - this one: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/idea-must-die-election-editi... - and there was an idea called quadratic voting. http://ericposner.com/quadratic-voting/
Anyway, the idea is that we all get X votes, and we can vote more on some things, e.g. if we REALLY want marijuana legal, I can vote 4 votes. The twist is that the cost of extra votes is the square of the number of votes, 2 costs 4, 3 costs 9 (we all get maths works).
The theory is this lets people vote on what they care about, much less than simply voting equally.
I was wondering there isn't some way to create a system where you earn votes, that you can spend in some similar way, e.g. you "earn" upvotes from others, and can spend them elsewhere. If everyone got a single vote, but you earned extra votes you could spend in interesting ways at increasing cost, e.g. you could heavily downvote an idea at an exponential rate, it might make people less a victim of common denominator views, give fringe views more airtime, and make people consider a vote more deeply. Not just yes/no but how much do I hate/love this idea? Enough to blow 100 points on 10 down/up votes?
Anyway, just some random braincrack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sHCQWjTrJ8) I needed to get out.
I am wary of this, especially when it comes to the web. I can see this system being "controlled" by early and/or very active users.
1. both of the 'unit-weight' up- and down-votes were only done through implicit/passive actions (basically a piece of Javascript running in a browser extension, that tracks whether you read the whole article/comment—i.e. scrolled through it at a reasonable reading speed—before scrolling away/closing/going back/beginning to reply)
2. there are above-'unit-weight' up- and down-vote mechanisms that are explicit, but require something humans consider very-slightly onerous: solving a CAPTCHA, paying a tenth of a cent of pre-paid credit, etc.
In my conception, the small votes would be named "OK" and "Meh", and the large votes "Love" and "Hate", with about a 10x difference between their power. The site, of course, would be called "Mehddit." ;)
I often upvote both a comment and its rebuttal, because in many debates I have no dog in the race and I often find that people on both sides have valuable or otherwise interesting insights. Even if I don't agree with them completely, I sometimes find that I'm able to view an issue from another perspective that I hadn't considered before.
Not to mention, many debates really just don't have a clear answer, and to pit commentors against each other like that is to enable one of them to be declared "winner", which I think would be misleading in many cases.
In a discussion being had in good faith, a thread will frequently go into a pseudo-debate mode to "find the truth" of a statement someone offered. Kind of like we're doing here. We all add anecdotes and counterfactuals and so forth, and see where the inductive process takes us. None of these comments would/should be tagged as rebuttals.
But there's a very specific situation where, I think, this feature is an important addition: when the original comment (or the post-link heading the discussion!) just doesn't know what it's talking about, and the reply outlines why this is so.
The concept is less like "this post disagrees with its parent, and so up-voting (agreeing) with it should mean down-voting (disagreeing) with its parent", and more like "this post is a petition to flag/retract its parent, and up-voting it is signing that petition."
This is why I had point 4 in the above, which might otherwise seem an unrelated feature: negatively-scored posts are not "disagreed with", but rather "flagged dead." But negatively-scored posts must still stay visible, in order to give requisite context to their positively-scored rebuttal-comments. And, in fact, a thread containing a negatively-scored top-comment might even still be the top-sorted thread, if its replies are considered valuable enough.
(One might still want to add some visual effect to remind those reading the post that the community considers it "retracted." Perhaps adding a strikethrough that disappears on hover, or a background of faint red Xes. You don't want to make the post illegible—it's still necessary context for its subthread, unlike the current HN/Reddit system where the post "fades" to nothing, and then the whole subthread gets considered a lost cause and collapsed.)
It's never clear what the downvote even means.. at least with an upvote or "Like" it doesn't matter too much if you misinterpret the result, but the downvote on certain sites is too coarse-grained to be useful.
That is the single most compelling reason, why I find most people (on|off)line disturbing. They just want to drown out dissent without helping other people argumentatively to understand the opposing view.
OK, that is probably, because they oftentimes do not have real arguments and haven't rationalized their position at all.
Maybe the past paragraph is just me being a misanthrope. Or maybe the internet is just too big - as bigger discourses tend to deteriorate.
Even for the one in a million chance of a person reading my stuff, I have to at least try to convey my POV with arguments.
And I am far from achieving this every time. Very far, actually.
But I don't think you need subcomments on comments, I think it's just overcomplicated. If the reply with downvote is nonsensical, it can be downvoted as well. Or it can be even flagged.
I bet a lot of the reason people down vote you about Elon Musk is that maybe you don't accept him as a "hacker" and don't see the way he's challenging the status quo and pushing technology, cars, transportation and energy systems into the future. Hacking the auto industry, the solar industry, the space industry. What he does very much fits the "Ethos" of what makes hackernews hackernews..
Personally I love the negativity of reddit and I enjoy it too. Snarky, sarcastic, vulgar or insulting comments in my opinion are part of discourse too.
Funnily enough, right around the time I made an acct here (4+ years ago, after ~1 year of lurking), I saw an internal post by a well-known Googler talking about the recent drastic decline of HN comment quality and looking for a replacement. I still get value out of HN comments (clearly), but it's definitely changed substantially in the last few years, and not really for the better. I've resigned myself to every high-quality Internet community without heavy, opinionated moderation being a slow treadmill towards popularity and then mediocrity, or worse. Though this is of course something of a "you're not in traffic, you are traffic" problem.
Shrug, that just depends on where people choose to set their standards; there are much worse fora and much better ones. As I said, I still clearly find HN comments at least worth reading, but the distinction isn't as binary as you seem to think it is.
Maybe for the next community, instead of making it public - potential users will instead have to find the site by solving a bunch of hidden puzzles. Think secret club.
Jokes aside: a major part of why HN works is that the community here self selects for several traits which ensure healthier communication.
As a forum becomes more mainstream, many things happen to attenuate the signal to noise ratio. (Pg had an excellent essay on the mid brow argument effect, which for many other forums is a problem they wish they had)
Eventually part of the crowd who came first realize it's not as useful anymore and decide to go somewhere else. The question is where.
We've seen eternal September come to almost every place and there's only a few traits which can help protect against it.
From my experience with many forums/modding, demographics are 80% of the issue, the remainder is topic of discussion, goal orientedness in discussion and moderator quality.
So the best solution is to create the forum and never advertise it. Let potential users figure out how to find it and how to get in.
the interesting thing about this is that HN comment system seems to discourage dialogue - i.e. you are not notified when someone replies to your comment. It seems to be more geared towards comment-it-and-forget-it.
Unlike Slashdot where you have to drill down quite a bit.
It's rarely a problem if someone forgets to follow up since someone else will usually do it, at least if their views are shared by other people.
That being said, the "threads" page is useful for finding and responding to new comments in your threads if necessary.
You're missing the point of e40's response (and others of its kind). It's not "stop whining, don't use it if you don't like it". It's informing you that there are still parts of Reddit you can get value out of if you change your usage patterns a little bit, instead of your blunt-instrument approach that leads to losing gems like (e.g.) /r/AskHistorians just because /r/politics is terrible. There's of course nothing _wrong_ with you deciding that Reddit overall isn't worth the effort, but there's nothing wrong with someone giving you an alternative in case you were unaware.
When Reddit blew up in popularity, almost everyone I know who'd used it for a long time got sick of the default feed (both submissions and comments) and then at some point found out that being parsimonious in your subreddit subscriptions can give you a pretty high-quality feed. Reacting with defensiveness and hostility to someone giving you that advice in case you didn't know is frankly just bizarre.
It certainly tends to get a lot of people riled quite easily.
What's that thing about polite company not talking about politics, religion, or sex.
The average person, myself definitely included, probably doesn't have much worth listening to on the subject anyway. To paraphrase PJ O'Rourke: though there certainly are many political commentators who might be worth listing to. Under some circumstances. In a crisis. Maybe.
r/programming is another good example. The community there is very hostile and actively downvote and hate on most new things that aren't C++/Java/.NET/Python sometimes. It's been stereotyped as a bunch of overly angry .NET/Java devs, not sure how accurate that is but the angry part is right. It's just a waste of time.
This is what is flawed about comments. It becomes an ego circle jerk...Which is necessary to even generate comments in the first place ("oo look how much Karma I get") but ultimately destroys a conversation.
Similarly, I dropped r/gaming years ago, but r/games has been reliable enough and good enough for such a period that it's evolved into my default place I look for gaming news. (The League of Legends subreddit also does pretty well on content and moderation, for something running at the scale of some of the defaults).
The problem I have with reddit, usually, is discovery - its difficult to find subreddits that are popular enough not to be dead, have the content I want, and are managed in good fashion to prevent the usual content/comment trash.
You have a much higher percentage of users who are deeply interested in the raison d'être of the subreddit.
Beyond that, you either need moderation or have to make a new sub.
I haven't read the article this thread is about yet, either, because the title gives me all the information I need at this moment. I know how crazy the comments were getting for NPR, which I started reading regularly a while back because they allowed comments on their posts. Now, I skip the comments if I'm reading an NPR article because most of the time it's some guy spewing something about how Obama is destroying the country when the article has nothing to do with politics in the slightest.
People did this on a national scale, then are surprised to see Donald Trump have so much support.
Too much negativity is debilitating, but sticking your head in the sand has its downsides.
I have Adblock/Tampermonkey rules to hide comment sections from most news sites that I frequent. (If someone could point me to an extension that handles this, I'd be quite happy...)
I consider comment sections (or even comment counts) to be visual noise that distracts from grokking the actual content.
It's unfortunate, because I like hearing a variety of perspectives. But without highly aggressive curation, reading comments is a net negative on popular sites.
> Hacker News is about the only civil place I'm capable of contributing to a discussion to at this point.
that statement floored me
because historically, HN has been one of the most toxic comment forums I've seen. I've kept coming back despite it, not because of it. there's enough signal to justify it. but it's a kind of low-grade toxicity: a weird mix of passive aggressiveness, disagree-based-downvoting, "cite paper!"-ness, minutial edge case-oriented pedantry (that misses the forest for the trees) and neverending humblebragging.
To give just one example I can't think of any place I've seen more humble-bragging and stealth-but-blatant self-promotion as on HN. Whereas on Reddit I know I can always read discussions where the participants are friendly, funny, insightful, mature, organic, etc. Not always, not everywhere, but I don't have to wade through a shit salad like I've had to do here on HN for years.
I do think it's gotten better in the last year, maybe due to the work of dang and some of the other UI improvements.
I do agree that on sites like CNN, YouTube, the comment threads tend to be overrun with the LCD behavior. Lots of noise there.
what I mean is... I tried to make a subtle point, but it didn't come across. what I was trying to say was this is one of the most toxic sites I've seen for a certain mix of toxic behaviors: mostly passive-aggressive, hyper-nerdy/autism-spectrum types of comments, humblebragging, etc. I agree with you wholeheartedly, from my own experience that yes there are other sites where there is more direct abuse, more direct trolling and harassment, which doesn't happen (or nearly as much) here on HN. what I'm saying is, on the flip side, I see a lot more of a certain kind of... there needs to be a word for it... the slang terms I learned for it were douchebags, pinheads, compulsives, booksmart-yet-streetdumb, etc. I just have never encountered that as much over on Reddit (itself a broad category because so much variance between subreddits there, and front page vs not) as I have here on HN.
again, I wasn't saying there's no signal here, and no politeness. I see lots of politeness and maturity here. also lots of muck. thus my slang term "shit salad" -- mix of good and bad. my point was that there's a different assortment of bad behavior I see here than on Reddit, CNN etc.
it does appear to me to have improved a lot, especially over the last several months. we'll see. YMMV.
>>a weird mix of passive aggressiveness, disagree-based-downvoting, "cite paper!"-ness, minutial edge case-oriented pedantry
You are basically describing software developers.
They are passive aggressive because they don't like direct confrontation.
They downvote when they disagree because if they disagree that means you are wrong.
They nitpick on edge cases because edge cases are what they deal with everyday in their code, so they can't help it.
So really, it's not HN you have an issue with, but the developer crowd. ;)