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Comment by gtrubetskoy | Hacker News Reader

I don't have a weight problem, I learned about ketosis researching natural ways for improving focus and concentration, and somehow came across "bulletproof coffee". (I'm only using BP for lack of a better name and I don't endorse the stuff they sell online).

To my utter surprise, something as stupidly simple as coffee blended with butter with coconut oil (or MCT) first thing in the morning did unbelievable things for mental productivity. After much googling I learned that this is not a fluke, and that there is real science behind it - beta-oxidation, etc, all that good stuff.

What's most incredible to me is that (1) I didn't know about it, I always thought glucose is the only fuel (and I consider myself fairly knowledgeable as far as basic physiology is concerned) and (2) that sugar, especially the industrially produced kind, is about as close to being the root of all evil as it gets and there is nothing wrong with fat at all.

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"Bulletproof Coffee"(TM) is snake oil stuff. It's based on the assumption that all other coffee on the market has mycotoxins, yet literally none of the brands in first world countries have them anyway. This was confirmed by tests.

The power of the placebo effect.

He started off by selling high-fat coffee creamer and sugar-free hot chocolate, which are reasonable. It's only later he's gone on to try to convince everyone coffee and wine are full of secret mold toxins.

Magic beans ? This sounds familiar.

The mycotoxins stuff is yet to be determined, but from what I seen so far there doesn't seem to be a lot of truth in that part.

The ketosis and positive effects on the brain thereof is backed by a lot of solid science.

From what I've seen "bulletproof coffee" has become a generic term for Coffee + Coconut Oil + Butter in most of the keto communities.

> I consider myself fairly knowledgeable as far as basic physiology is concerned

No offense, but after learning you were dead wrong about a pretty fundamental concept, have you reevaluated this belief?

I would say he did...there is no substitute for personal experience but that doesn't mean turning you back on common knowledge (as evidenced by his continued research after making the changes).

This is not necessarily needed. Because this is a rare case where not only is the mainstream media wrong but so are most other common viewpoints.

> To my utter surprise, something as stupidly simple as coffee blended with butter with coconut oil (or MCT) first thing in the morning did unbelievable things for mental productivity.

Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much. If that doesn't work for you, talk to a doctor.

Not helpful. Michael Pollen's pithy advice is a rather trite and even he will say it's misleading adage. For example, if one ate mostly starchy or sugary plants, they'd probably be a lot less healthy than someone who ate mostly wild game and greens. Nutrition is incredibly complicated and variable.

Why not both?

Doctors are way more expensive than food.

I was referring to bulletproof coffee and plants.

As a counter point, I did keto for several months last year and found that my concentration and mental clarity were significantly worse while on the diet. My mind operated at about the capacity as it would have, had I slept only 5 hours the night before.

Most people find that their alertness and focus improve significantly on keto.

The trick is that

a) it takes quite a while for your body to get adjusted to ketosis. 6 months to fully adjust, but the primary adjustment will take at 2-4 weeks for most people

b) during this adjustment period, you'll usually feel like shit. since you're running empty on the fuel your body is used to. but many people cheat, or accidentally ingest too many carbohydrates, persistently keeping their body out of ketosis and ensuring they feel terrible endlessly and blame keto for it.

Plus you have to up your electrolytes of sodium, magnesium, and potassium. If you don't you tend to have a foggy head.

100%. i take pills for the sodium and magnesium (they usually have potassium too but usually not enough). and avocados are a staple when it comes to potassium

I've never found potassium in sufficient quantities in pill supplements - but low-sodium salt gives you 500 mg per 5g teaspoon (and another 1000 mg of Sodium, Ironically)

Unsweetened Almond Milk is also an awesome source of both sodium and potassium - a staple for me while doing Keto.

Thanks! Really appreciate the recommendation - I'm going to hit up all our local stores for some. Went jogging this evening, and for the first time in about 2+ months didn't get any cramping in the legs (which happens to me 100% of the time for any run longer than about 8-10 minutes), and the only change I've made is supplementing potassium, calcium, and magnesium.

In keeping with this thread - I guess I could vary different dozens of variables, one or more at a time, apply the same Ketosis machine learning algorithm, and see what really makes the difference.

So, pedialyte? Or does that still contain too much glucose?

I'm finding mixed info online but always assumed it had too much sugar. I think it has 25g but some sites are saying 6g. 25g would be more than you are allowed in a day on most keto programs.

I typically take ZMA and potassium then drink something like Propel while at the gym. Then I have chicken broth when I get home to get some salt back.

A keto checking strip[1] would help to be in the know of whether the body is really doing keto.

1. Its available online

I wonder if anybody on Ketosis has ever done an endurance event and not ended up feeling absolutely miserable/exhausted. I was on a fairly low carb regime (< 15 grams/day) for about 6 weeks, and something as simple as climbing fifty stories would always end up with me breathing heavy, and sweating. A simple 500 gram carb-load the day before, and I could that same climb 4x over without being anywhere near as exhausted.

The research that I've read says that the ideal training regime is to work-out in a carb-exhausted state, so as to encourage your body to develop the low-carb metabolic pathway, but for actual endurance events, definitely carb load as your primary fuel.

Yes, Peter Attia is good source of knowledge on ketosis + endurance. Check out his amazing blog at eatingacademy.com

I can recommend this book http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/the-art-and-science-of...

I've been training for triathlons while adhering to a ketogenic diet since October 2015. Initially I struggled. It definitely felt like a step back. Over time my body adapted and 3-4 months later I was performing on the same level without consuming copious amounts of carbs as prior to going keto.

These days I can wake up from a 12-18 hour fast and run a marathon at an easy pace while ingesting zero carbs in the process.

I ingest some carbs during actual races when glucose utilization is higher due to higher intensity. You will always need some glucose and the ratio of fat/glucose metabolism depends on intensity. Basically if you push the pedal to the metal your body will utilize what it has got. With that said, I feel like keto adaptation definitely broadened my options for how to pace myself and how to use my energy reserves during training and races.

50 stories? Or 50 steps? Because 50 stories sounds like a lot, not something you should be able to do without a lot of endurance training beforehand. At my best I could climb maybe 15 stories without running out of breath.

This probably had to do with too little salt consumption. I had to increase my salt intake from 2 to ~5 grams per day. If I don't, I have a mental fog (and cramps and stuff).

This talk digs into it a little bit:

http://quantifiedself.com/2015/12/effects-year-ketosis-jim-m...

Did you measure ketone levels in any way?

Your symptoms is very common during the ketosis adaptation phase which shouldn't last more than two weeks at most.

If they persist any longer than that you are probably not in ketosis.

The best way to measure ketone levels are through blood ketones (beta-hydroxybutyrate) with a blood tester such as the precision extra or similar.

There are some breath analyzers such as the ketonix that measures acetone levels in your breath - and they are alos pretty good.

Urine sticks don't generally don't work very well after the first month.

Bulletproof coffee is really the strangest of any strange fad beverage/weight loss ritual I've ever encountered.

But even weirder is that it really doesn't taste bad, and it did didn't do terrible things to my innards.

The sound of it is really counter-intuitive:

  oily coffee, black.

But then you realize that these flavors have been mixed together for years, whenever you have buttered toast and coffee. (now, minus the toast)

I mean, if you put cream in your coffee... that's basically liquid butter with some whey in it.

No, the actual experience is a significant departure from using cream, or milk products, or imitations of milk.

It floats on the top, in beads, like a soup broth.

Just needs an emulsifier. Butter and egg coffee, now that'd be something.

One of those immersive hand mixers for 10s or so can turn it into an emulsion, which is much more pleasant.

glucose is the only fuel

Can you expand? Like, you thought that cells only metabolize glucose, and dietary fats & proteins are converted to glucose? Or...?

> you thought that cells only metabolize glucose, and dietary fats & proteins are converted to glucose

Pretty much. I don't know where that may have come from, but I suspect I'm not the only one who naively thinks that this is the case. Somehow "ketone bodies" aren't mentioned in dietary conversations nearly as frequently as glucose.

Here is a detailed explanation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/

From the abstract:

During very low carbohydrate intake, the regulated and controlled production of ketone bodies causes a harmless physiological state known as dietary ketosis. Ketone bodies flow from the liver to extra-hepatic tissues (e.g., brain) for use as a fuel; this spares glucose metabolism via a mechanism similar to the sparing of glucose by oxidation of fatty acids as an alternative fuel. In comparison with glucose, the ketone bodies are actually a very good respiratory fuel. Indeed, there is no clear requirement for dietary carbohydrates for human adults. [...] Contrary to popular belief, insulin is not needed for glucose uptake and utilization in man.

LOL yeah, I just spoke to a dietician the other day who swore that glucose is the only thing your brain can use for fuel.

It's easy to be ignorant about a situation you never experience. Every single person they deal with is going to be in a carb-adapted state and never miss a meal, so their body will run entirely off of glucose.

I vaguely remember reading about this in "The Ketogenic Diet". There are some functions that do require glucose. However, your body can convert enough fat and protein into glucose to satisfy that.

Yeah, that was a TIL moment for me when I found out the body can make glucose without carbohydrate. There were others, like how mitochondria burn fat more efficiently than glucose.

What you are experiencing is called the placebo effect. Google it.

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