Comment by beagle3 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by beagle3 | Hacker News Reader

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Your statement makes no sense. How does control over a piece of land make a difference to democratic status? You could just as well ask why illegal/undocumented mexicans do not have representation in congress.

Palestinians have a Palestinian Authority citizenship and passport, and are not Israeli citizens (therefore cannot vote in the Israeli election, and thus have no direct representatives in the Knesset, although there are some Arab-Israeli members of the Knesset who consider themselves Palestinian and do, in some ways, represent them).

It so happens that, as a result of complicated and pretty fucked up history, (a) Israel exercises military control of the West Bank, and (b) A small but extremely loud minority of Israelis have built their homes in the West Bank, and the Israeli army looks after their interests.

The West Bank is NOT officially a part of Israel, has not been annexed, and plans to do so are not even on any table.

Israel used to have exactly the same kind of arrangement (military control, some settlers) in Gaza between 1967 and 2005, at which point, Israeli unilaterally pulled out of Gaza (forcibly moving all Israelis living in Gaza out, and leaving it to Palestinian and PA rule). In a very bloody internal war that also involved fraudulent elections, Hamas took control of Gaza from the PA, and essentially declared war on Israel, causing Israel to enforce a blockade of Gaza. 10 years and thousands of rockets and bombs deployed on both sides later, this is still where it is at.

Partially as a result of the experience of pulling out of Gaza, Israel is reluctant to pull out of the West Bank, which -- with some land trade -- was actually the plan.

I am not taking sides here, but, by western standards, which include (for example) the right of women to drive and not wear head covering, gay people to be gay, the right to drink alcohol, practice any religion you wish, and stuff like that - Israel indeed is the only democracy in the middle east. Hamas executes gay people. Saudi Arabia just jails them IIRC, and alcohol is verbotten even if you are Christian.

> You could just as well ask why illegal/undocumented mexicans do not have representation in congress.

You're comparing a Mexican who made the decision to cross a border yesterday, or last year, or a decade ago, with say a Palestinian man born in Nablus 75 years ago, whose family has been in Nablus for centuries? With a West Bank settlement which seized land next door, the Jew from Brooklyn who just moved in yesterday, and who is in a West Bank settlement, the Jew can have a Knesset vote but the Palestinian can't because he's not a Jew. Comparing the Mexican to the Palestinian is a laugh.

Then you say Palestinians are separate so should not be in the Knesset. The West Bank settlements and IDF in the West Bank belie this. Israel voting in the UN to deny Palestinian statehood belies this.

Plenty of statements from Netanyahu and the ruling Likud are that the West Bank was annexed.

Also Israel used to "secretly" fund Hamas and Hezbollah as a bulwark against the PLO, PFLP, George Habash etc. That has come out over the years, it mainly came out in the US in the 1980s when Israel and the US were caught arming Hezbollah and Iran (Iran-Contra), but other dribs and drabs came out over the years. The PFLP and elements of Fatah and the PLO were always the main enemy, and Israel has always opposed the secular left vehemently and sometimes supported Hamas. So Israelis condemning Hamas carries little weight.

Also, Israel has a large and rapidly growing population of Jewish religious fundamentalists who control ALL marriages in Israel with a Jewish fundamentalist take, and in their communities those women have to cover their heads and shave off their hair, being gay is verboten etc. Israel has a large population of Jews like this.

>You're comparing a Mexican who made the decision to cross a border yesterday, or last year, or a decade ago, with say a Palestinian man born in Nablus 75 years ago, whose family has been in Nablus for centuries? With a West Bank settlement which seized land next door, the Jew from Brooklyn who just moved in yesterday, and who is in a West Bank settlement, the Jew can have a Knesset vote but the Palestinian can't because he's not a Jew. Comparing the Mexican to the Palestinian is a laugh.

To be fair a Palestinian man born in Nablus 75 years ago didn't had the right to vote either as he was born during the British Mandate, if he lived in Nablus he would then have became a Jordanian citizen when Jordan was founded and have annexed the west bank. After the 6 day war, and continuously after that Jordan has been retroactively revoking the citizenship of Palestinians.

>Then you say Palestinians are separate so should not be in the Knesset. The West Bank settlements and IDF in the West Bank belie this. Israel voting in the UN to deny Palestinian statehood belies this.

Arab Israelis 16 Muslim Arab Israelis MP's members in the Israeli parliament and while it's doesn't match the demographics completely 13% out of 16% is pretty good representation, especially considering that Israeli Arabs also vote and are members of other parties including the Labor and the Likud. The Vice Chairman of the Israeli parliament is MP Ayoob Kara who if had been born 75 years ago would fit your story just as well, although he was born in Daliyat al-Karmel and not Nablus, Ayoob Kara is a member of the "spooky" Likud party.

>Plenty of statements from Netanyahu and the ruling Likud are that the West Bank was annexed.

The West Bank was never annexed, infact it it would be annexed it would probably be a better situation it would mean that Israeli law would be applied to the West Bank which would also require Israel to issue permanent residence to all current non-citizen and grant them a path to citizenship like it did with the Golan Heights and Jerusalem. The Palestinians who have dual citizenship and live primarily in Jerusalem have stated time and time again that they would rather continue to live in Israel even as residents only in case of any permanent agreement with the PA.

>Also Israel used to "secretly" fund Hamas and Hezbollah as a bulwark against the PLO, PFLP, George Habash etc. That has come out over the years, it mainly came out in the US in the 1980s when Israel and the US were caught arming Hezbollah and Iran (Iran-Contra), but other dribs and drabs came out over the years. The PFLP and elements of Fatah and the PLO were always the main enemy, and Israel has always opposed the secular left vehemently and sometimes supported Hamas. So Israelis condemning Hamas carries little weight.

Israel wasn't funding Hamas, not to mention Hezbollah, it was pitting Hamas against the PLO/Fatah Party and why wouldn't it?

>Also, Israel has a large and rapidly growing population of Jewish religious fundamentalists who control ALL marriages in Israel

No they don't, all religious authorities have full control of the marriages of their respective members within Israel, this isn't unique to the Jews. In addition to that Israel respects civil unions (can be done in country) and civil marriage certificates issued by virtually any country on the planet, including same sex marriages.

> the Palestinian can't because he's not a Jew. Comparing the Mexican to the Palestinian is a laugh.

The palestinian is a Jordanian citizen and can vote in whatever election process Jordan allows its citizens. Or, at least, was until Jordan revoked that citizenship (which it has been doing for a while, incidentally because palestinians were threatening the Jordanian rulers[0]). I think Jordan at some point voided all of its claims to the west bank.

> Plenty of statements from Netanyahu and the ruling Likud are that the West Bank was annexed.

No, there aren't. Some of them wish it was annexed, and are working towards this, but fifty years later, there has been zero official movement towards. Those same people, by the way, talked exactly the same way about annexing Gaza -- which was unilaterally pulled out from.

> Then you say Palestinians are separate so should not be in the Knesset.

Yes. Just like the Gazans before them. It is likely that Israel will pull out, possibly unilaterally, out of the west bank, possibly following some forced land exchange.

Soundbites not withstanding, pre-1948 Palestinians that accepted Israel at its founding are Israeli citizens to this day (about 16% of the population, of which ~90% are Muslim and ~10% are christian).

> .... So Israelis condemning Hamas carries little weight.

So? The west supported Saddam Hussein up until the day they didn't. Alliances change. The Hamas of 1980 was against PLO and not throwing rockets at Israel, so it was supported by Israel. The Hamas of 2006 is throwing rockets at Israel, so is condemned by Israel.

> Also, Israel has a large and rapidly growing population of Jewish religious fundamentalists who control ALL marriages in Israel .... Israel has a large population of Jews like this.

You are deeply misinformed about this (and I suspect about other issues as well). Indeed there are jewish sects that are as horrible in their approach to freedom as Hamas and Saudi Arabia is, but

(a) they absolutely no control of "all marriages" and not even jewish marriages (and legally, not even within those same sects, although believers may choose to adhere), and

(b) even though they might like to, they cannot shoot or jail gay people or drop them off buildings the way Hamas and Saudi Arabia do, because that's not the law of the land. In fact, one of them just got life in prison for stabbing a gay pride participant. and

(c) While it this population is of nontrivial size, it is still a very small minority.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

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