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Comment by dpeterson | Hacker News Reader

Can I ask, are you a programmer? My guess is you are not. If you were you would understand the real physical strain and mental toll it takes to be good. If you want to excel, it is a never-ending battle to stay current and there is little to no reward for experience (even though it matters a great deal and must be accomplished on and off the clock). There is limited time to make money before you either burn out or are perceived to be too old to stay relevant. So, yes, there is a lot of risk putting the best earning years into companies that promise one thing and deliver another.

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I am not. Programming is just a hobby and I am not very good at it. I am a lawyer, and my comments would apply to law as well (except that the barrier to entry is a bit higher since regulation forces people to go through law school). Your comments about physical strain, mental toll, risk of burning out etc. describe my field well, though. And I doubt salaries for lawyers and programmers are that different anymore.

The difference being, the older you get the more you will be perceived an expert at law. Your experience ages like a fine wine. Experience in tech ages more like a ripe watermelon sitting in the sun. Your earning potential will only go up the longer you are a lawyer. That is not true for those that stay developers their entire career.

P.S. I also spent a great deal of time getting degrees. B.S. in computer science and a Master's in Software Engineering. It is often not required to get a job, but it is still a barrier for many openings.

Let's see.

In 20 years your field might have made large parts of my field redundant. I truly hope so :-)

Programming is still a young profession and it's growing at a tremendous pace. The population pyramid of Programmers' Land actually looks like a pyramid which might cause programmers to think that older people can't make it.

I know many older folks in IT who are still active. My old man continued until he was 70. They may not know the newest tricks in node.js or machine learning but they are the only ones who know the old legacy code that lock-in users and protect their jobs.

I bet you and most of your colleagues will be active until retirement. Just like lawyers may continue as partners (partially or mostly doing managing or marketing) many programmers might transfer to management.

A lot of programmers have long formal education but the market for programmers without education is still huge and the salaries for programmers without formal training easily beat almost any other professions where there are no educational requirements and a lot of professions with educational requirements. In which other profession can you realistically hope to start with salaries of 60-80k after a few months of online courses?

I think we've lost sight of the argument. I do not disagree that people taking a few months of online courses are being paid well (or above) what they should be earning as a programmer.

Maybe in the Valley startup culture but I live very far from the Valley and that's not even close to my experience at all. What kind of "physical strain" does typing code result in? I seriously have one of the most flexible and lowest stress job than anyone I know.

Sitting in one position while making only minute movements and staring at a screen causes significant strain if you don't balance it out with exercise.

Call me a fanboy, but my Apple Watch's hourly reminders to get up and walk around have helped immensely.

Once try to solve a bug, from a program of size 100mb. Then you will probably known what happens to your brain. Try to continue a project, which is huge, without any documentation, it takes years of efforts, to do so.

My favorite improvement that our agency made to our workspace isn't the dual monitors, isn't the shorter hardware upgrade cycle; my favorite improvement is the sit-stand desk. Seriously. I think every desk worker should get something like this.

I used to have all sorts of minor aches and pains from sitting most of the day. Now I spent an hour standing, an hour sitting, plus the usual breaks, etc. I'm more productive and happier. If your company won't buy one for you, buy it yourself. It's worth it.

Hmmm, "And if you go in on a Saturday afternoon, I can tell you which start-ups will succeed, without even knowing what they do. Being there on the weekend is a huge indicator of success" - Marissa Mayer

Maybe you can get away with doing just your job and going home to relax. I would wager, you may have difficulty finding your next job however. Have you never programmed so much you start having dreams that it takes steps to breath and you subsequently have a difficult time breathing? The physical toll takes years to manifest. I am in my 30s. If I did not exercise at least every other day I would not be able to continue doing what I do. You are most likely in your early 20s. Wait and see what a lifetime of programming does to your nervous system. I would not be surprised if a study reveals programming causes brain damage.

>Maybe you can get away with doing just your job and going home to relax. I would wager, you may have difficulty finding your next job however.

That's just not how it works outside the Valley. I've only crammed extra hours in to meet a deadline a few days a year, and only at one company. I've worked at 3 different companies in two different cities 400 miles away. Nobody expected 80 hours a week or whatever and I, quite frankly, wouldn't do it because I value time with my family and I'm not productive 80 hours a week. We also highly value experienced programmers and they command a higher salary. I don't have a government job either and I never have. "Valley culture" isn't synonymous with programming as a profession.

Any Marissa Mayer? Isn't she mocked for her poor leadership?

There's a lot more to running a successful business than people being physically present on Saturdays.

You're running into quite the hyperbole. If programming literally makes your lungs stop working why keep doing it?

>You are most likely in your early 20s.

I am in my late 30s.

Programming in general is a really good cushy job. Valley culture is what is toxic. I'm sure it you worked construction 80 hours a week for however many years you'd be in much worse shape than if you were getting paid a large salary to write some CRUD app.

This. So true. No disrespect to the author of (grand-) parent comment, but working in SV or a startup is not always refelective of working elsewhere (in the US or further afield). I'm based in the UK, and had to endure long working hours/insane deadlines early in my career while working for various consultancy firms. Once I moved away from these 'churn and burn' factories, I made a point of working for employers who take care of their employees. Since then I rarely work weekends (never in my current role), and would rarely work more than the required 45 hours a week. Despite this, I find I'm more productive, and achieve more than I ever did earlier in my career when I was working long hours.

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