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Comment by lisivka | Hacker News Reader

Russian (Russish, русский) language is example of success of artificial language.

It was language of books, used mainly in Orthodox churches, like Latin in Western Europe, but now it is spoken by hundreds of millions.

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Hebrew has a similar story in Israel. [1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language

I speak both languages, and AFAIK neither is nearly as artificial as Volapuk or Esperanto.

That's certainly true. But they're both examples of a community collectively deciding to learn and speak a non-native language.

What language the Russians spoke at that time then?

Russians (Great Russians, Russish, русские, великоросы) were speaking their own native languages. For example, Putin is Uyghur. He is Russian and his native language is Russian, but Russian is not native language for Uyghurs.

The longer explanation:

There is three kinds of "Russians". Rus`, Rusyns, Russians.

Rus` lived at Baltic Sea. Rus` means "red". They were warriors, i.e. their life was to fight, trade, and collect taxes. Their native language is unknown (probably, Old Norse). At times of Great Epidemic, they left their city (now known as Old Russa, Старая Русса) and "concurred" South and started to govern it, so territory of current Ukraine got name "Rus`". Slavish colonists at these territories got name "Rusyns" (русины) (see below). At time of expansion of Rus`, North people was concurred and paid taxes to Rus` (Лаврентеевская летопись, ст 4. об. «А вот другие народы, дающие дань Руси: чудь, меря, весь, мурома, черемисы, мордва, пермь, печера, ямь, литва, зимигола, корсь, нарова, ливонцы, - эти говорят на своих языках, они - потомство Иафета, живущее в северных странах.»). They got name "Russish" (русские). This was time of "Great Rus`", so North Russians are also known as "Great Russians" (Великоросы), while South Russians (Slavs) are also known as "Little (Core) Russians" (Малоросы).

Summary:

  * Rus` - possibly warriors union or Varangians, native language (probably): Old Norse.
  * Rusyns (Ukrainians) - Slavish colonists governed by Rus`, native language: Slavish.
  * Russish (Russians) - native Europeans, native language: many, probably Finno-Ugric and others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Russa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_%28name%29#From_Rus.27_to...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_peoples

NOTE: -in, -yn, -an means "he/she" (modified "он" - "he"), -yny, -iny, -any, -ini, etc. - "they" (modified "они" - they) ("y" as in lynx). So Rysyn (русин) means "he is Rus`", Rysyny (русини) means "they are (people of) Rus`". Russians means "they are Russia", "россияне", but selfname of Russians is Russish ("русские").

Moreover, Russia is Greek name of Rus`, given by Catherine II (born in Prussia) to Moscovia, because Russia was used at West as name of past parts of Great Russia. Nikolai Kostomarov wrote something like "LOL, we are Russians now" at time of rename (ДЂло въ томъ, что названіе Руси укрЂпилось издревле за южнорусскимъ народомъ. Названіе не возникаетъ безъ факта. Нельзя навязать народу ни съ того, ни съ сего какое-нибудь имя. Это могло приходить въ голову только такимъ мудрецамъ, противъ которыхъ мы недавно писали (1) и которые намъ сообщили прекурьёзную новость, какъ Екатерина II, высочайшимъ повелЂніемъ, даровала Московскому народу имя Русскаго и запретила ему употреблять древнее свое имя — Московитяне.)

"At times of Great Epidemic,..."

The plague of 1770?

No. It was about 1 thousand of years earlier. Documents and recorded stories are referred to two major events, which caused to abandon cities and colonies: Great Epidemic, then army of White Ugric.

Thanks! Do you have a recommendation for learning more?

Sources about that period of colonization of Eastern Europe by Slavs are Greek (colonies in Crimea, Byzantine), then Arabic (traders), then Slavish (church chronicles, recorded stories). There are very few documents to read (few dozens only).

Would the Great Epidemic refer to Plague of Justinian?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian

That army of White Ugric sounds unfamiliar to me, what would that be? Perhaps the Finno-Ugric tribes who in 1087 raided and sacked Sigtuna, then capital of Swedes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigtuna

Yep, Great Epidemic ("Великий Мор") is Plague of Justinian. Army of White Ugric (Hungaries?) was in 898:

В год 6406 (898). Шли угры мимо Киева горою, которая прозывается теперь Угорской, пришли к Днепру и стали вежами: ходили они так же, как теперь половцы. И, придя с востока, устремились через великие горы, которые прозвались Угорскими горами, и стали воевать с жившими там волохами и славянами. Сидели ведь тут прежде славяне, а затем Славянскую землю захватили волохи. А после угры прогнали волохов, унаследовали ту землю и поселились со славянами, покорив их себе; и с тех пор прозвалась земля Угорской.

(Hungaries passed Kiev in 898).

-in is actually a a possessive suffix

мамин (mamin) - mother's кошкин дом (koshkin dom) - "Cat's house"

it also refers to people

болгарин (bolgarin) - Bulgarian боярин (boyarin) - boyar

the etymology of Rus is from Scandinavia, see Fin. Ruotsi "Sweden", Ruotsalainen "Swede"

And what is the etymology of Moscow, Yauza, and Oka, Volga and rivers... ?

Moscow comes from the locative на Москви (na Moskvi), while the original form is *Москы. It's using the locative because the hydronym (name of the river) is older than the name of the city. So the city comes from the name of the river.

Further, Lith. mazgóti "wash, splash", Latin mergō "dive"

Yauza probably from ya- and -(v)uz (vyazat' - to tie, bind, knit, uzel - knot) so maybe something like "the river that ties"

There are several etymologies for Oka, it probably has a form of oko (eye) in it, maybe from a Baltic source.

Volga has the same root as vlaga, vologa - "wetness"

I 90% sure that "Volga" means "(Vol) ... (Ga) Water/River", "Oka" means "(O) ... (Ka) Water/River", "Moskva" means "(Mos) ... (Kva) Water/River" in native language of people lived there, because "Kvas" means "Water".

kvas comes from kvasit' - to make sour

Yep, you are right.

-in, -yn, -ian, -an: "he"/"they".

-yaki, yaky, -aky: "which is/which are".

Pol - field, "farmer". Polyak - which is Pol (Western Slavs). Polyan - he is Pol (Eastern Slavs).

Moreover, Arab: ar - horse, ab - (one) of. Arab - one of riders.

I doubt that Putin is Uyghur, nor he looks like one. But, that's besides the point. Even if he was Uyghur, that would make him a member of a minority nation from Russia, who would speak Uyghur language as his mother tongue. I do not see the connection with the original post.

Russians speak the Russian language, its various local dialects, and were speaking it since it evolved from old (Proto)Slavic language(s). Of course it changed a lot during the millenia, but it is a natural language like any other major european language.

A bunch of closely related dialects, I suppose?

Russian is a bit like Sanskrit, a compilation of certain features of dialects spoken in different areas, so that the mix is mutually intelligible across them, without precisely matching any.

Isn't that true for any european language? There is a standard language and many local dialects that are more or less close to that standard. That doesn't make standard Italian, or standard German, or standard Russian, or any other standard language artificial, in the sense of Esperanto or Volapuk.

Not quite true, even texts from 1000 years ago are quite clearly intelligible to modern Russian speakers, unlike Beowulf to English speakers.

Latin texts from 2000 years ago are quite clearly intelligible to modern Latin speakers. ;-)

Not really intelligible to Italian speakers that didn't study any Latin. Italian lacks noun cases.

BUT, modern Russian still retains noun cases, multiple verb conjugations, rich aspect system, etc. that typifies Old Russian texts

There is no "Old Russian" language. You are talking about Old Church Slavonic language which is created by Saints Cyril and Methodius to translate Bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic

PS.

Quote from (English) Wikipedia:

The official language in Moscow and Novgorod, and later, in the growing Muscovy, was Church Slavonic, which evolved from Old Church Slavonic and remained the literary language for centuries, until the Petrine age, when its usage became limited to biblical and liturgical texts. Russian developed under a strong influence of Church Slavonic until the close of the 17th century; afterward the influence reversed, leading to corruption of liturgical texts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language

Wrong, Russians spoke the Old Russian language.

Слово о плъкоу Игоревѣ was written in Old Russian.

Old Church Slavonic is a different thing.

There is no such thing as "Old Russian". "Слово о плъкоу Игоревѣ" is written in "folk language", which then evolved to Ukrainian language.

That's what Old Russian is - the language of Kievan Rus and related dialects.

But Latin had a (or really many depending on era and style) written form and a spoken form (vulgate). My understanding is that the vulgate is quite similar to some Italian regional dialects, although not to standard Italian (itself a postwar construct)

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