Kinesis Advantage 2 | Hacker News Reader

Kinesis Advantage 2

kinesis-ergo.com

121 pointsafshinmeh156 comments

If you're looking for a mechanical ergonomic keyboard that you can also easily take with you, I suggest taking a look at Atreus[0], a 42-key column-staggered keyboard.

I got one a while back. Haven't gotten around to publishing my build log, but building the keyboard was a lot of fun.

With the somewhat steep learning curve out of the way, I've been really enjoying it and gone are the days of wrist pain.

Oh, and I'm in no way affiliated with Phil or the project, just a very happy user dropping his 2¢ here.

[0]: https://atreus.technomancy.us

Been eying these up for a while now. Also the firmware is completely open which is nice.

Absolutely; I'm using a slightly modified layout myself. Both the design and the firmware(s) are free software:

- Design (GPLv3): https://github.com/technomancy/atreus

- Current firmware (GPLv2+): https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus

- Older firmware, great for learning (GPLv3): https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware

How are the wrists bent with the small size? Ideally, the keyboard should be split in half so your wrists are farther apart.

There's a lot to consider when shopping for an ergonomic keyboard:

https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heir...

That's true and perhaps surprisingly enough, despite the small size I don't find myself bending my wrists when typing.

The fact that the layout is column-staggered helps a lot with this too: I don't have to bend my wrists sideways to reach the "corners" of the keyboard; I just move my hands back and forth.

The Atreus is a fun project to build and the fact that the controller source code is freely available is great fun. I've built mine with Matias keys and they do feel better than the wobbly and less smooth action found in the Cherry brown keys.

I have a few Advantage keyboards as well and in my mind they serve different purposes.

The Atreus is a great portable lapboard and works really well when you use it in that regard. FYI: The lack of extra keys lend this keyboard to Emacs programmers; You'll be chording on this keyboard significantly more than you might expect.

For a non-portable ergonomic keyboard, the size of the Advantage and extra keys offer a more comfortable typing experience when used on a desk. These keyboards are pretty damn huge though and will fill a backpack without any extra help.

That looks really, really interesting - but the shipping outside of the US is a bit scary/expensive. Any idea if the creator teamed up with a European person/store as well?

as the design is open, it'll be cheaper/easier to cut the plates yourself and handwire the matrix. but you do need quite a bit of time (1 or 2 days to fully assemble it).

You mention time, I mostly see 'skill' ;-)

Thanks, maybe I can either

a) use this to improve my loooow skills

b) find someone that can do this for me, locally, sans shipping.

Originally bought because of wrist pain, I've had the kinesis advantage for 16 years, I'm on my third one and I've worn out keys on each one from so much use. Luckily they shipped me new switches for free and allowed me to switch the myself (at my request due to timing). Fantastic service and product. I really do wear them out.

With that said, all three exhibited the sticky modifier problem. I'm used to it but it always made me wonder if the internals were going bad.

In March I preordered https://shop.keyboard.io

I'll be very interested to compare, and if it isn't as good or better, I won't hesitate to order the updated kinesis advantage.

I'm in the exact same situation and have been pondering that keyboard also. Do you plan on doing a write up after you get it?

That looks sort of interesting, but as a programmer, the awkward positioning of tab and return, and the need to use modifier keys to get the directional arrows, {}, and [] just completely kills it for me.

My experience with remapping my mind to the Advantage2 keyboard was that it took a week to be reasonably usable, and a month before I was back to my normal flow. All wrist pain gone. It is really nice to have many of your most used keys on your thumbs instead of your pinkies.

No modifier keys necessary for the directional arrows, if you mean the ones that move the cursor? They're under your pointer and middle finger on each side. Having return key (and backspace, space, and mod keys) always directly under your strongest fingers ends up feeling really natural and efficient, in my experience.

I was talking about the https://shop.keyboard.io thingy.

The firmware is open source and you should be able to remap the tab, return and any other key you'd like anywhere you please.

All keys are remap-able. I have moved the arrows to the left.

And yes it takes time getting used to. I am faster on regular keyboards.

But with this one I don't have pain.

My experience is the same. Their firmware is terrible but the keyboard is good, if not very overpriced.

They're certainly expensive ($350), but no-one who finds it helps with their Carpal Tunnel (like me) would say it's overpriced. Think of its price in the context of medical devices :)

This keyboard style is absolutely amazing. I had pre-carpal style pain in my hands for years and tried every other keyboard out there, including all the ergo ones that came highly recommended. This is the only one that actually stopped the pain for me. 10+ years of satisfaction here - I've got one at every PC I use regularly now.

The new non-mushy F-keys are a nice improvement, but honestly not sure that's worth replacing my existing ones since they're built like tanks already.

> built like tanks

I got mine 12 years ago, still have the same one as my primary keyboard. I replaced the enter key about 3 years ago, because I'm pretty hard on keyboards, frequently breaking space bars, etc., within a year before I got a kinesis. 2 weeks ago, I was having an issue with a row of keys going unresponsive intermittently. I emailed support and they sent back detailed instructions for checking inside the keyboard, despite the product being 12 years old. The issue went away before I could try to fix it.

I don't have any other computer equipment that's as tough.

Similar here. My oldest Kinesis I've had for 14 years and it was used when I bought it (this was before they were USB). My daily use one is from 2003 and I don't see any reason to think it won't last another 13 years.

The F-keys are poor, but I don't use them all that often, so it hasn't bothered me much; that's the only feature on the "what's new" that seems a big deal.

Kinesis keyboard is some of the best money I've spent on computing over the years. One downside: I now look like a moron when I go to type on a regular keyboard in a conference room or at someone else's desk.

On the plus side, it's a nice way to keep people from using your terminal. They sit down then get a scared look on their face and quickly give you back control of the machine ;)

Yeah, this is actually really funny and a good way to keep digital "peeping toms" out. Even my wife refuses to use my workstation beyond the bare minimum because she's not good with the Kinesis.

While I'm pretty new to the game (only been a user for about 4 years), I still love my Kinesis. Prior to getting a Kinesis, I was buying a fresh MS Ergo 4000 once every 6-8 months because the etchings in the keys would wear off, the membranes would get gunky, certain keys would get sticky or soft-to-the-press, etc. The Kinesis has permanently resolved that class of issues for me (and more than paid for itself just in the cost of replacement keyboards, not to mention heretofore staving off the need for carpal tunnel treatment).

I convinced a friend to get a Kinesis last year. I did a thorough cleaning of mine around the same time and was pleased to see that after a little elbow grease, the brand new unit and my aged unit were practically indistinguishable.

Kinesis keyboards are tough and one of the few buy-it-for-life-priced devices that actually seems like it'll never wear out.

Some of my F keys gave out, and I emailed Kinesis and they told me that the new mechanical F keys can't replace the old ones, because the circuit board is different.

The F-keys seem to be the part that aren't built like tanks. I had to replace my Kinesis because my Esc key was wearing out from 6 years of using Vim on the keyboard. (Sure, it convinced me to bind Esc somewhere more convenient, but having Esc not register when you press it is quite frustrating.)

I swapped Del and Esc the first week I got my Kinesis. But even with it there I still sometimes use Ctrl-[ to press Esc.

These are now mechanical, though I prefer having it remapped.

Same here. I thought I'd have to change careers. This keyboard makes it possible for me to continue coding.

I am wondering, does anyone here use the foot switches that kinesis makes and in what configuration?

I use the 3 pedal foot switch. Left pedal is escape. Right pedal is move to the end of a line in vim. Haven't decided what to do with the middle one yet.

Three pedal one here. Bought by accident but now happily use it with middle one to switch modes using Karabiner and outer two either Cmd/Mouseclick or pgup/down, left/right, scroll, space left/right etc.

someone made an arcade button mod, positioned on the wrist rest, to function as extra buttons acting as the foot pedals. might be an interesting way to go instead of having to have another peripheral device.

I broke my original, and have been considering a new one. 50 dollars extra to fix those rubbery keys... not store its worth it. Then again I am on windows now, so I end up using the function keys more.

I'm waiting for ultimate hacking keyboard in September [1]

[1] http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

Why stagger the keys?

As a ergodox user I can answer that.

While yes the matrix layout is _way_ better, the downside is that if you ever type on a standard keyboard you are immediately frustrated. I imagine it would depend on your working environment, but for me the combination of using a laptop, working with co-workers, and then using my desk with my awesome ergodox means that I am often fighting my own muscle memory to continue typing at a high rate of speed.

There is something to be said to conforming to what most people have. Splitting the keyboard gives me a good compromise, I can still have my hands in relaxed positions, and while I am not going to be as fast as when I am on just the ergodox ,I gain by being much faster working in the other environments I often find myself in.

Personally, I've found that it takes about five minutes for my hands to adjust when I switch between ergodox and laptop. (Basically working at home vs in a cafe). I'm a relatively speedy typist in either mode, but it does take adjusting to swap modes.

That said, this is why I am not using colemak on my ergodox- I dont want to further distance the two keyboards.

I used to type on Dvorak at home and Qwerty at work and switching between the two was no issue.

I use an Advantage at work and a standard laptop keyboard at home and I would have to disagree. Using the Kinesis was a challenge the first week or so, but it never interfered with my typing on normal keyboards. The worst habit I picked up is occasionally mixing up + and ~, but that's not related to the matrix layout.

Same, I really like how they're building in the option to put a trackball or trackpad as attachments. Also as an ergodox user, i find the split keyboard more comfortable and allows my wrists to sit straight while typing.

Me too, simply because it's the only one I can find that has a trackpoint.

For those that may wonder "What's the point of a weird-looking keyboard?":

Engelbart's Violin http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861

Thank you for the link; it and its references were interesting reads.

Personally I am waiting for the KeyMouse[0], a physically-split keyboard with integrated mouse as part of the keyboard parts, so no need to lift hand from keyboard to perform mousely duties.

Hopefully it is a great product, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have taken it a step further and made the keyboards at an angle to mimic natural arm positions.

[0]: http://www.keymouse.com/

It's a little overengineered for my taste.

I would be very happy if microsoft on the Ergo 4000 instead of including a stupid, absolutely useless "zoom knob" thing just put a trackpoint there!

http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg

what a bafflingly missed opportunity.

And with mech keys.

I'm toying the idea of build a clone, but my initial finds show will be more hard/costly than expected:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79603.msg2053482

The good news is that you can at least remap what the zoom knob does using MS's IntelliType software. But you're right, hugely missed opportunity.

I'd pay good money for an Ergo keyboard with mechanical switches. The last decade or so of MS keyboards have been rubber-domed disasters. I cannot type on the things.

I pre-ordered a couple KeyboardIO keyboards, and maybe I can make them work well with a little firmware noodling. Looks like November or later . . . .

I tried one at CES. Great concept but wasn't sold after trying it.

I'm going to assume thats a dead project. He missed his deadline. Refunded all pre-orders and hasn't posted any updates for 2-3 months?

Well, shit. All the updates are backer-only so I hadn't read that. Disappointing.

Personally, I try to reduce my dependence on the mouse. Occasionally, when my brain is fried from a week of programming, I'll unplug my mouse and do a mouse fast on Friday afternoon to transition more of my workflow to utilize the keyboard.

I code the CODE keyboard right now https://codekeyboards.com And I especially like the hardware switches to remap some keys. But the Kindesis SmartSet Programming seems like another level.

The main problem with buying the right keyboard is that you almost never can try it out (i.e. in a store). There are multiple variables, besides the general ergonomic question, mainly:

You want to know how it feels to type, you want to know how it sounds to type (mostly: is it quiet or will you get on your co-worker's nerves?).

I have just bought a Logitech in a store that did not allow me to take it out of the box to try it out. Once I've tried it out at home, I wanted to throw it in the trash immediately. F*ck them for selling like that.

So, if you're looking for a start-up idea: Why not set up an online store with ALL brands (maybe focus on the premium segment which is ergo keyboards, first). Then you ship the customer keyboards to test at home. Once the customer's happy, he returns the last test keyboard and gets a brand new version of it.

If you're in the US Amazon generally lets you return anything for any reason. "I tried it and I didn't like it" would be fine with them. It makes the process a bit slower, with shipping and all, but you could purchase all your candidate keyboards together and then return the one(s) you don't like.

Up until they decide you've returned too many things and they cancel all your accounts with them without recourse.

As with most stores, I think Amazon returns are meant for actual problems and cases when things really don't work out, not for trying out hardware.

IIRC, Kinesis claims it has a two-month, no-bullshit return policy: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/customer-service/guarant... presumably because people want to try out their keyboards.

I have two of the original Kinesis Advantage keyboards, one for work and one for home. They have saved my programming career.

Given the usual price multiples, this is going to be a nearly 500 euro keyboard in Europe (inc. VAT).

E.g. Kinesis Advantage Pro in US: $359 ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/ )

In Holland: 390 Euro ex VAT ( https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-toetsenbord )

So let's say for the Advantage 2 the $369 price becomes 400 Euro. Add 21% VAT and you end up paying about 484 euro, without shipping of course.

Ouch.

You can usually get it for around 10% off either when they run a sale or off Amazon. But yes, they are expensive, but they also age well and Kinesis is great with support. My first keyboard lasted 8 years before a couple of the switches started to go. Contacting them, they gave me the option of shipping me new switches for free (requires soldering) or buy a new key-well (the curved circuit boards) for around $30.

The V1's don't age that well, though. My F-keys were starting to fail within a couple of years. They are rubber dome keys with a little conduction graphite layer on them, like remote control keys.

Granted, the new version _should_ not have this problem.

The key with the V1's is to remap keys you use frequently from the f-keys to something else, but if you use them a lot V2 will be a big upgrade for you.

I have used the original edition of this keyboard for some years now, and it is amazing. By far the best keyboard I have ever used. While I prefer the Cherry Blues on my older Das Keyboard, the layout of the Kinesis Advantage is incredibly comfortable and quite efficient. It does take some remapping to make it work well with Emacs, but that's all done with the keyboard firmware itself (i.e. no driver software needed).

If you want to solder in cherry blues yourself you might be able to buy the keyboard without the switches. Kinesis is good about things like that.

Does it fix the shift bug that plagues the model 1? Every user I have talked has had the issue but the company denies it is an issue even though we can reproduce it on many different keyboards, different hardware, and os's.

I am very interested in getting this, but I don't want to do it if this issue hasn't been resolved.

What's the problem with the shift button? I'm using the first model for several years now and never noticed a problem with the shift button.

Not just shift but modifiers in general get stuck.

Just to be clear they don't get physically stuck. The most common issue reported is that the keyboard behaves as though the shift key is being pressed even though it is not (aka stuck). The way to fix it is to first recognize that the keyboard is in this mode and then hit the shift key to turn on/off the shift modifier. I have reports of this issues going back to many different kinesis keyboards from at at least 2001 onward.

Weird. I have not had this issue. I'll ask my co-worker on Monday if he has; he's been using this keyboard for like 8 years.

I have 2 Advantage keyboards and both exhibit this issue. Back when I first got them (about 9 years ago) I called Kinesis about it, but they claimed they had never heard of the problem. While it seems to happen most often with modifier keys, I've had it happen with regular keys, too (including the delete key, which is always exciting :-).

I reported it several times between 2002-2005 as I got new keyboards and each time was told they were unaware of the issue. Heard the same thing from others that reported it between 2005-2010.

I've been using an Advantage at work for about a year, and this happens to me once or twice a week, usually with the Shift key, but sometimes with the Alt key, which is even more disorienting. It goes back to normal after tapping one or more modifiers.

I was a beta tester of the Advantage 2 and the problem is completely gone with the new firmware.

What is different with the Advantage 2?

(I did take a look at the website and I'm wondering about your personal experience -- what makes a difference in daily use?)

The biggest difference was never having the shift or modifier keys get stuck on. The mechanical f keys were really nice as well, though being that I'm already a advantage user my standard layout has the ones I use regularly (especially esc) mapped elsewhere. Programming new key combinations and being able to use the .txt files made remapping a bit easier. It also made it easier to see what I had done in case a mapping didn't look right.

If you do a lot of remapping with multiple layouts or macros the new one is a must. If the occasional modifier's getting stuck really bothers you, or you are a heavy user of the f keys and can't remap for whatever reason you will benefit from the advantage 2.

If, on the other hand, you only do a small amount of remapping and have already mapped away f-keys that are used a lot AND the modifier freezing is not a big deal for you it might not be worth it to upgrade to the new model until your current one bites the dust. If you are looking at getting an Advantage for the first time I would buy this one instead of the previous model.

Thank you. I have the old one and am not experiencing stuck modifiers so I'll hold off.

> ...but the company denies it is an issue...

It sounds like the person you spoke with wasn't familiar with the product. They've been aware of the problem for years. It's mentioned in the manual [1] and on their website [2].

[1] http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/conto... - Page 28.

[2] http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-support/troubl... - "Weird behavior with Advantage keyboard".

Ah! Thank you! I've had this issue from time to time. I thought it is probably a software thing, not the keyboard.

Thanks to the link you've sent I now have a simple solution - tap both shift keys at once.. Great!

No problem. :)

You can also use <Stuck Key> + <Program> in cases where you only have instance of the stuck key. Alt or super in the default layout, for example.

I had RSI issues, and jumped into using a Kinesis Advantage and switching to Dvorak. I eventually went back to using my laptops keyboard, and still use Dvorak. I haven't had any RSI issues in the last 6+ years! I highly recommend switching to a Kinesis if you have hand/wrist pain and still need to work.

For those that prefer a split keyboard, I highly recommend Matias Ergo Pro.

The keys are very nice, more importantly, it allows me to adjust how far apart each halves of the keyboard should be.

It seriously alleviated my shoulder ache as I can finally type with my arms open.

Everyone always focuses on keyboards for RSI. While a great keyboard helps, removing the pressure off your wrists makes a massive difference. https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable-Arm... These may make you look awkward at the office, but it takes all the strain out of your hands and wrists. Your weight is now on your forearm. Leaving your hands free to move. They articulate in every direction allowing full "wax on" "wax off" motions.

I can recommend the ErgoDox. It's somwhat similar and DIY, but much cheaper. For mine I payed not much over 100€.

Link: https://ergodox-ez.com/

295$ is not that much cheaper.

The PCB is only 35€. And i had most other parts already.

That's the non-DIY variant. That's of course more expensive.

I got more than enough cherry keyboards, so i had switches and some high quality keycaps (the black cherry ones), and the experience of building it. The PCBs only cost 35€.

I've had the ergodox ez for a while now. Really like it. I had the advantage in the past and it didn't work well for me. I made a 3d printable tent kit for the Ergodox EZ which has worked really well for me too. https://github.com/rothgar/ergodox-ez-tent-kit

I wonder why they aren't any direct Kinesis competitors. Their patent expired a few years ago.

Here is "What's new" info:

1) Cherry ML mechanical function keys

Original Advantage: Mushy rubber function keys. Advantage2: You asked for it and we delivered. The function key row now features low-force Cherry ML mechanical key switches that offer a satisying, tactile key press plus unmatched reliability and durability.

2) Whopping 2 MB of onboard memory

Original Advantage: 2 KB of onboard memory (Advantage Pro had 4 KB). Advantage2: The Advantage2 has 2 MB of memory, as in megabytes, which is 1000x more memory than the standard Advantage. Now you have an enormous amount of space to record macros and build custom layouts.

3) Heavy duty macros & increased capacity

Original Advantage: Up to 48 “short” macros (28 characters or less) or 24 “long” macros (58 characters or less) Advantage2: Each custom layout built with the SmartSet engine can now support 100+ “heavy-duty” macros of more than 200+ characters in each. SmartSet allows you to create even more powerful macros through the direct editing process. Insert delays into macro playback of either 125ms or 500ms, or trigger different actions on the press and release of a given macro trigger.

4) View and edit layouts

Original Advantage: When you remapped a key or recorded a macro you had no easy way to track you changes or perform any updates. Advantage2: With SmartSet, all layouts are saved and stored as basic .txt files which can be opened with any text editing program on any operating systems. Open the text file and directly edit your remaps or macros. Even insert new actions using many standard USB hex codes.

5) Share and backup layouts

Original Advantage: There was no way to share or backup layouts. You had to keep a separate crib sheet if you ever wanted to rebuild your custom layout. Advantage2: Each layout is stored as a basic text file making them easy to save, backup or even share with a friend. The days of rebuilding your custom layout from scratch are over.

6) Status Report

Original Advantage: It was easy to forget which layout was active, which thumb key mode you were in and other keyboard settings. Advantage2: Thanks to the new Status Report feature, you can quickly “print-to-screen” a Status Report showing you basic information about the active layout include the number of key remaps and macros, and your thumb key mode.

7) Adjust macro playback speed

Original Advantage: All macros played back at one speed. Advantage2: Choose from 9 different macro playback speeds. Set the playback speed globally for all macros or set it individually for a specific macro to optimize performance. Slow playback down to 4.2 characters per second (“CPS”), or speed it up to a blazing fast 250 CPS- equivalent to typing 3,000 words per minute!

8) Hotkey layouts

Original Advantage: Only supported one custom layout. Advantage2: With the Advantage2, you can now create dozens of custom hotkey layouts for either QWERTY or Dvorak and access them with a simple 2-key combination: Program + the assigned hotkey.

9) Native Dvorak

Original Advantage: When you switched out of Dvorak you lost your settings. When you remapped keys in your Dvorak layout you did so in QWERTY. Advantage2: Dvorak is no longer a second-class citizen. Dvorak users get all the same functionality as QWERTY users, and each custom Dvorak layout is saved to the keyboard so it’s easy to move back-and-forth or share your keyboard. And when you’re remapping in Dvorak, you no longer have to translate from QWERTY.

10) Easy firmware upgrades

Original Advantage: Firmware was not upgradable. Advantage2: When you invest in an expensive keyboard, you expect it to last. Thanks to the SmartSet engine you can upgrade the firmware when new versions become available. Firmware updates take only seconds and don’t require opening up the keyboard or downloading a scary executable file (.exe) from the internet.

11) Kinesis Blue Home Row

Advantage2 features a more vibrant, modern home row accented in Kinesis Blue.

Nice upgrade. One minor change I would have liked is the relocation of the led lights. I've placed a wireless trackpad in the middle and it covers the led lights, so I don't always notice immediately that I've (or my cat) accidentally activated the Keypad. But I suppose the new non-rubbery MX function keys will eliminate such accidental keystrokes.

Oh, and wireless would have been nice too.

Missing: the 2-port usb hub on the back?

There is no 2-port usb hub on the back. I'm thinking that this caused other issues with compatibility. In theory you could move them to another location yourself if your into the whole modding thing. I've seen people in Geekhack do some pretty crazy things with them.

What are some examples what the macro function can be used for? In many cases the macros I need are so specific such that I define them on the fly in VIM (i.e. q [a-z] and then q to stop, finally @ [a-z] for playback). Perhaps I simply don't write enough for macros to take advantage of more permanent macros.

Here's a vim tip that has me using macros way more frequently! Map <space><space> to @q. That way we to record a macro, space space to play it. Much easier to remember, especially because I usually only use one macro at a time like you said. Plus you get the satisfaction of mashing space and watching your screen light up with changes.

I'm not a programmer, I'm a manager that spends far too many hours a day glued to Microsoft Outlook (kill me, please). I found the macros useful simply to repeat often typed phrases or keystrokes. So for example, I bound F3 to the expression "Best regards, zafiro17" followed by Alt-S which is bound by default to "Send" in Outlook. So I'd write the body of an email, then hit F3 and the keyboard would add my closing and hit send.

>more vibrant, modern home row accented in Kinesis Blue

I know this is a sorta superficial criticism, but they really need to overhaul the look. It looks right out from the early 90s, especially the logo. Without compromising function, they should really make it look like a modern product. Don't underestimate people's desire to look cool (see, for instance, the huge business of customizations for practically any software or device).

I have been using the Kinesis Freestyle on my Mac with the VIP accessory pads and it is very comfortable. I place the two parts of the keyboard on the sides of my 15" MBP.

I have the Freestyle 2 (which I reviewed here [0]) and it's great. My wrists are so much more relaxed. Every time I have to use a traditional keyboard now I cringe. It's also helped me improve touch-typing.

Unfortunately, I have not found a good solution for a mice. The Magic Trackpad, even turned around in negative slope, is just not good enough when there's a bit too much drag&drop.

[0] http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis-freestyle2-multich...

I use a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse or trackpad. Holding the stylus pencil-style is very comfortable once you get used to it.

I use a Wacom for some tasks, but I find it even worse than a mouse if you are switching back and forth a lot. For drag and drop I recommend the Contour Design Rollermouse Red. The downside is it doesn't pair well with a deep keyboard, as it wants to replace any wrist rest.

I use an Evoluent mouse and it's been a revelation for how much a regular mouse was tweaking my right arm and elbow.

I absolutely loved the RollerMouse before I got my Kinesis Advantage. It might work for the Freestyle though so you could consider giving it a try. Still the most ergonomic mouse I've used to date.

Along with everyone else here, I had the same issue with my wrists, took a gamble, and got the keyboard. I haven't looked back. It's awesome.

I let a co-worker borrow it, because he was having wrist issues, and he had the complete opposite effect with him. Wrist was turned down when he said it needed to be turned to the side. So he tried it for 15 minutes and returned it to me. So I guess it's not for everyone.

How long does it take to get used to using something like this?

Is it worth the effort?

How does it compare to a natural keyboard (the slightly more normal looking split one by Microsoft)?

It took me about 5-7 days to get used to typing on Kinesis. The beginning was really frustrating, even though I touch type, I wanted to returned it because I thought the keyboard was overhyped. But when it clicked - I loved it! For me it's definitely worth the effort, it's a fantastic keyboard and helped with my wrists and general comfort while typing.

It depends how happy you are with membrane keys. I went from an MS Natural to a traditionally shaped Cherry, and not only did my RSI not come back, I found my typing speed went up. I don't know if the membranes in that generation of Natural were particularly soft, but I wouldn't go back for the shape alone. If I can have both the shape and mechanical keys, it might be a winner.

Remarkably little time. I've ne Ed screed carpal tunnel but my ha S's feel noticeably more relaxed on the kinesis. They are a bit expensive but well worth it

It took me about 2 weeks until I was up to normal speed. It was probably a month before I could use it with zero difficulty. I used ktouchtype to train on it.

The thing is if you have any idiosyncrasies in your touch typing, the Kinesis will not forgive them. The way that the keys are stepped down into different levels makes it difficult to use the "wrong" finger to reach the desired key. Of course, ultimately, that's for the better. It will just take you a little bit of time to unlearn some of the not-quite-official typing habits you may've developed over the years.

I absolutely believe it's worth the effort. Wrist pain is almost never an issue for me anymore. The Kinesis is highly durable and cleans up very well.

I used the "Natural" keyboard for years before I switched to the Kinesis. There's no comparison. I had to replace the MS keyboard twice a year or more. Been on the same Kinesis for about 4 years and there are no signs of it wearing out.

The only downside is that sometimes there are weird firmware issues that sit unreconciled. For example, there is some incompatibility with the Intel USB 3.0 bus, Windows 7 (at the time, Win8 was the latest OS, and it didn't affect Win8; don't know if it affects Win10 or not), and the Kinesis. It simply isn't detected under that OS. No problems on other versions of Windows, other OSes, or other USB busses. This meant I couldn't use it on a Bootcamp'd MacBook Pro. Kinesis was apparently unable to get Intel to cooperate in debugging the issue with their chipset drivers.

That said, it's an investment that I enthusiastically endorse if you're willing to commit to a couple weeks of learning curve (and since we're talking about the health of the hands needed to continue our careers here, you definitely should be).

I had a very similar experience with Advantage 2. 1 week to be mostly usable, and 1 month for the keyboard to disappear from my mind and melt into the flow.

Not that long. Programming is a bit weirder, but using HN it feels pretty much normal. You just have enter under your thumb now.

Yes, I was getting worse and worse wrist pain. Completely cured. Even after mine broke about a year ago I'm only now starting to get a bit of stiffness (and will probably order a kinesis again).

Mechanical switches are nicer. I haven't used the MS one enough to get used to it.

The Ergo 4000 I used to love. But after using real keys, those super mushy huge ones on the Ergo 4000 just don't work for me. I used the Matias Ergo Pro (which has a slightly wonky layout for no reason, including dedicated C-Z,X,C,V hotkeys (not possible to change)). It didn't take much getting used to, but some of the odder placements still hit me from time to time (Ctrl next to N, in the split). But after a year it starting hurting my wrist. Not sure if it was the angle or the switch pressure. The tiny arrow keys were also super annoying (I know, I try to use hjkl but still).

I went back to MS, with the Sculpt. They have scissor switches and a mostly normal layout. Pain's gone down a fair amount in a month.

I tried out the original and found it to be incredibly frustrating. I'm a fast typist, used to MS Natural keyboards,and I constantly felt like my fingers were "tripping" over the keys. I'm sure part of that is just getting used to the arrangement but I really felt like I was putting more strain on my wrists trying to move my fingers more deliberately to avoid hitting other keys.

Slow down.

The asymmetry you are used to with the (un)Natural keyboards induced reflexes that no longer work with the contoured. For instance, to hit many keys in staggered keyboard such as Microsoft's, you have to twist your wrist a little. If you counter this natural twist (instead of not twisting at all), this contracts your wrist even more than it used to.

So slow down, it will get more natural over time.

Anyone know if the firmware allows you to program keys to emulate a mouse? I use this often with tmk_keyboard https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard firmware and found it to be just good enough to never use a mouse and keep the keyboard on your lap which is much better for my shoulders.

No, but contact the support ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-support/contac... ) they are wonderful.

Agreed, this could be a feature that could be added if there is enough demand with the firmware.

On OS X Karabiner probably lets you. Maybe their firmware could also if you contact them. I once got sent a debut version of their software for the foot pedals and it had tons of cool hidden functionality.

yep. but you're limited to using d as the trigger for the mouse. it should be customisable somewhat but i haven't explored about that.

I bought the Advantage1 in 2008 and it's been one of my best keyboards ever since then. It's extremely comfortable. I wrote up a few paragraphs about my impressions here:

http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Sty...

The one common complaint is that they had used rubber keys instead of mechanical for the function keys. Looks like that issue is addressed in this second edition. For sheer key build quality, the Totally Ergonomic Keyboard is better. But the Kinesis is more ergonomically comfortable, and includes a couple of USB slots so it can function as a hub (few other ergo keyboards do that).

I won't buy this new version because my own Ergo will probably last another 20 years - it's built that strongly! - and the rubber function keys don't bother me a bit.

Maybe this is new, but the TECK has terrible build quality IME. I have been using two (home and work) and both have accrued keys that don't work properly---some don't respond reliably, or at all, and some double-press. These are both Cherry browns. Firmware tweaks haven't helped.

I heard that there were some issues with the solder joints on the switches with the the TECK. When I went over to being a Kinesis user I had considered these but decided to go with the Advantage......am very glad I did.

I was lucky enough to find a local-ish store that had in-store demos available. They were nice enough to let me go in and try one out for an hour or so.

I'm quite happy with my MS Ergo 4000, but I always wanted to try out the Kinesis. It does take a fair amount of getting use to. Initially feels quite funny to type on. The deal breaker for me at the time is that too many of the symbol keys are not in their usual locations, which is more significant when programming than writing prose.

Here in the Antipodes the markup on these things is ridiculous (e.g., AU$550/US$420) so you really have to want one.

Another keyboard to look at is the Keyboardio Model 01: https://shop.keyboard.io/

They're not shipping yet; as of their last update, estimated ship date is Nov. 1. I have a pair on order, but I haven't had a chance to try one, so I can only hope they work as nice as they look :-)

You could always 3D print your own one...

https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard

Bonus points for having used Clojure to design it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4

Hey Kinesis, if you're reading here, I'd love to see a controller upgrade for the original Advantage to get around the sticky keys bug. It's not even a problem to lose the built-in USB hub. My two old Advantage keyboards are trucking along just fine otherwise!

These keyboards are amazing. Hands/wrists stopped hurting after ~1 week of switching.

I had a similar experience. Increasing pain levels gradually drove me away from from pursuing programming projects outside of work. First I tried the Kinesis Freestyle2, and while the pain got better, my hands could not adjust to the additional degree of freedom from having two keyboard pieces. Got the Advantage, and now I can code again for hours without any wrist pain. Highly recommended.

I was a beta tester of this. AMA

FINALLY real key switches for the F-keys. I have been making do without them for at least 7 years now, since they gave out after only a couple of years on my Kinesis Ergo Elan.

Still using the same old plastic moulds with the weird off-centre label I see.

Where do you see that? The photos look like the same rubbery things they are using in V1?

It's in the description, "Long-time Advantage users will rejoice to learn that we’ve replaced the mushy, rubber function keys with high-performance Cherry ML switches that offer the same low-force and tactile properties of the MX Brown.". Great change but I guess I will not drop 350$ just for that ;)

I beta tested the Advantage 2. They replaced the rubber keys with mechanical ones using the same size for the switch.

Anything else that's diff? I almost never use my f keys do its not a big deal for me.

The firmware with the ability to update it and do a lot more crazy stuff with the macros etc.. I'm not a heavy macro person but do a decent amount of remapping and liked that. Also the stuck shift/modifier keys has been fixed.

If you currently have one, are happy with your setup and don't really use the f keys it might not make as much sense to do an upgrade. If you need another unit, have killed your current unit, or want to make the switch I would recommend this over the previous models.

Frustratingly I just had a new one ordered for a new job. I can't wait for the pre-order, I need one now :(

The stuck modifier key issue I didn't know was universal, but is annoying. I'm surprised they can't do a firmware update for that? Does it really need a new model to fix it after all these years? I've had the stuck modifier issue from an advantage from 2008.

The problem is that the previous version did not have firmware that could be flashed and I'm guessing that they had other micro controller issues. In all honesty if you run into this issue once a day you are probably running into it a lot. I currently have a classic and a advantage and it's not a huge deal. The difference between having a advantage 1 vs advantage 2 is much smaller than the difference between having a non advantage (well style keyboard) versus something else.

Is it possible for Canadians to buy this? (Or those outside the US in general?)

I've bought a few of the model 1 from http://www.ergocanada.com/ in the past. Be prepared for a hefty markup and non-trivial shipping costs. It might be cheaper to buy in from the US in the end.

You might also have some luck contacting vendors that sell other Kinesis gear and see if they'll special order it for you at a good price. http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis

A macro can now contain a whole program in case you like compiling fresh

Wonder if this is worth buying over the advantage 1 in Canada with additional costs of getting it shipped over the borders. Can get the older model for $400 CDN on amazon.

I have one of these on every computer I own. It's amazing. It saved my career. I physically cannot type on a regular keyboard anymore.

Wrist damage will be the new back damage.

yeah, that's about 1/3 of my salary...

They are far from the only ergonomic keyboard in town. The Microsoft Natural is decent and about 20% of the price.

It doesn't have mechanical switches.

After you try the Kinesis Advantage, the Microsoft Natural feels like a joke. The length of your fingers is distributed like a parabola and the Kinesis design is the parabola that fits over your fingers to minimize the travel distance of _all_ your fingers. Conversely, the Microsoft Natural keyboard is actually a parabola that goes _away_ from your finger to actually _increase_ the travel distance needed for your ring, pinky, and index fingers.

I'm guessing you don't suffer from wrist pain. I'm fortunate that after 30 years of typing every day, I'm still pain free, but I work with people that struggle with it. For them, if a $350 keyboard makes the pain go away, it's the easiest money to spend ever.

It's not cheap but I don't think it's outrageous either, assuming it lasts a long time. Wrist health is important for anyone spending a long time on the computer. It's relatively cheaper than safety equipment for a lot of industries/hobbies.

What percentage of your salary does your computer cost? This is the primary interface to that, something you will use 8 hours a day. Your wrists don't care if your CPU runs 2.3Ghz or 2.7Ghz, but they will care if your keyboard/mouse/screen/chair setup is not good.

I have pimped out my work setup at my own expense and I think it is well worth it. I know many people at work who have brand new BMW's or shiny pickup trucks who use their vehicles for 20 minutes a day on their commute and yet pay $400/month for the privilege! I bought a 30" monitor, an advantage 2, a RAT 5 gaming mouse, and a Geek Desk for a grand total of $2k and I use the setup 8 hours a week day. Also, a 2001 Camry that I paid cash for. Why not invest in the environment that you'll spend your most productive adult years in?

You had me until the 2001 Camry, that's just being a masochist, haha! You can get a reasonably priced, fun car without having to suffer!

I've got an Ergodox, Logitech g700s mouse and three monitors, 32" in the middle with two 24" on the sides, plus a great comfy chair.

Best money I've spent, worth it at 10x the price, considering how much time I'm sitting there...

Why is that thing so bloody expensive? The cost of parts for a keyboard are measure in pennies, for the most part. The manufacturing is ridiculously cheap.

So, with all of that, what justifies a $350 price tag on any keyboard these days?

I've had conversations with Kinesis about this. Even though there is a enthusiast community there is not enough of a demand to send manufacturing overseas. Also, because of the key well design those PCB's need to be soldered by hand rather than wave soldering them. The net effect is that they are hand made in the United States which is why the cost is higher.

It's the same thing with Maltron keyboards, which have a similar 3D sculpted layout for some of their models. They are individually hand-wired.

On the other hand, when you look at the cost of RSI they are well worth the cost when you consider the alternative. I tried out the Maltron and it didn't help me (it's not carpal tunnel), but I get along well with the Kinesis Freestyle 2. Worth every penny, I got one for home as well, and it helps greatly. When the alternative is finding another career, it's pretty inexpensive all considered.

When you factor in how long these things last it ends up being a wash... a Kinesis will last 8-10 years vs most which start to have issues after 2.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com