A Lighter and Smaller Laptop | Hacker News Reader

A Lighter and Smaller Laptop

kartick-log.blogspot.com

42 pointskartickv72 comments

I get that this would be desirable for a lot of people - but not for me. It's definitely cute, it's definitely portable, but if you can afford the difference between this and a regular MacBook or something with a similar form factor, why not just grab the latter? It's not as if you can fit this in a pocket or something - you'd still need a bag/backpack to carry this around comfortably, and then why not just use a full-fledged laptop with a larger screen, arguably easier-to-use pointer. I honestly cannot see myself being as productive on one of these as I am on my regular old laptop.

Despite this article claiming that this device would have all the capabilities of a normal laptop, I think this fails in some of the same ways that smartbooks did in the past. Who -really- wants to do serious work on one of these instead of a laptop with a normal-sized screen? I can imagine potential strain on the eyes after a long time working on one of these - not to mention the seemingly awkward aspect ratio.

To each their own, though.

I use a Dell xps13 (13" screen in an 11" laptop chassis, almost no bezel).

The (very high DPI) monitor is just barley large enough for comfort. I wouldn't want to work on anything smaller.

Although there's still a bunch to cut down in thickness & weight.

Yes, in my opinion the magazine sizing they show in the picture is close to the limit most people would want. Cutting the sideways size doesn't give enough portability benefit to justify losing so much screen space. The manufacturers have got it right in the direction they have been going, to increase battery life, decrease the size of the bezel, decrease weight and thickness, and also improve robustness and waterproofing, so that it is no more of a hassle to carry around than a magazine, and so that you could read it like a magazine (or a tablet).

We're not too far away from that. The Macbook, the Surface and the Chromebook Flip are all in the 0.9-1kg range, now it's incremental progress to reduce weight to 500-600g, improve fanless performance, and meet all the other goals above. We'll probably also see commodity pricing of fanless processors through ARM competition with Core-M, so that the prices of these devices end up closer to the Chromebook Flip than the Surface.

Yep. Although even my Skylake i7 xps13 can use better performance (it subjectively feels slower than a desktop sandy bridges i7, 5 years it's senior).

Interesting. I do think there's demand for smaller devices. For example, some people get their work done on a tablet.

I'm personally in the big screen camp as well, having recently bought an iMac 27. When I used a laptop, it was a 15-inch. But others prefer smaller screens, even getting their work done on a tablet. I do think there's demand for that.

Why would there be more eyestrain working on a smaller device (assuming the same font size)? I don't feel more eyestrain when I use my iPad for half a day at a stretch than I do my Mac.

Regarding your point about who wants to work on a smaller screen, people say that about the 12-inch Macbook as well. Or about working on a tablet, which some people do. I, like you, prefer big screens, but different people make different tradeoffs.

To each their own, indeed.

Sorry, I've already had to give up enough vertical screen space on laptops. I'm not giving another inch.

And once you add menus, toolbars, startbars, and the hideous white space that is currently fashionable you have a less useable workspace than an early 00s era laptop.

I do like the new Surfaces.

Good point. I like to see some new method thrown at the UI controls when one switches to full screen / no toolbars. Possibly stealing swipe type methods from mobile.

As the blog post says, this device wouldn't have some of the visual overhead desktop OSs have: menu bars, dock, title bar, etc.

A superwide aspect ratio is impractical for too many things. The audience for this device would be extremely limited.

I still long for the days of the 4:3 aspect ratio.

Me too - my old and trusty HP nx6320 had it (retired not hurt). I am more interested in a detachable that would with work perfectly with Linux and allow me to run Android apps in a window (as long as we are dreaming :))

It would not be too far from having two 4:3 monitors side-by-side, which is generally pretty nice configuration. For example if it were 1440x600 (which would make sense), then you'd have two 720x600 windows. Not exactly SVGA from olden 4:3 days, but pretty close. You could have for example two 90x50 character terminal windows with that relatively comfortably.

Surface Pro/Book is 3:2.

That should be achievable by adding another screen on top of the one on this machine, hinged at the top. In closed position the thing could work as a tablet, in open position the top screen would flip 180° to form the top part of a large 4:3 screen.

The main body could be set on rails, to slide forwards from under the keyboard when the thing is used as a laptop (more or less the inverse of what slider phones did, here the keyboard stays in place while the body slides away from under it). Add a touchpad to the main body and you'd have a relatively normal laptop configuration.

As the blog post says, it would be practical if the apps / web apps / web sites are redesigned for it. Which may or may not happen, granted.

No need for a touchpoint. I've been waiting for years for a capacitive trackpad under the surface of the keyboard. Blackberry have done this on their Passport and it's great. I don't know why others haven't copied the idea.

How does that work, you run your fingers across the keys lightly or something?

Yes. Two modes: default scroll, means you can scroll without obscuring the screen. Or double tap to get a cursor in a text box.

What about a touchpad on the spacebar. Which such a wide aspect ratio, it might actually work. Or, go back to the double-row enter key and that would be enough space.

This is not a very practical mini computer. The design has been lopped off from a larger Mac rather than designed from scratch. The full-sized keyboard means it's still quite large - certainly not pocket-sized. A more practical approach would be to have a smaller, pocket computer as a companion to a larger laptop (or desktop computer) rather than try and make the smaller laptop the main computer.

Almost 20 years ago (in 1997), a British tech company called Psion released a small handheld computer called the Psion Series 5. Some images here:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=psion+series+5&source=lnms...

Suprisingly, no one has made something similar (that I know of). I imagine it could be made today with an e-ink screen for extra long battery life. A pocket computer like this would be perfectly capable for everyday tasks like email, wordprocessing and using spreadhseets (but not for video or graphics work).

I think that if a device has a physical keyboard, it should be a full-sized keyboard. If not, get rid of it and have a smaller, thinner, lighter device.

Having a crappy keyboard is IMO the worst of both worlds — you get neither the productivity of a full-sized keyboard nor the thin-and-lightness of a keyboard-less device.

Which is why I chose a full-sized keyboard for this device. Some reviews of iPad keyboards, for example, begin by suggesting you don't buy one, instead buying a full-sized keyboard: http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-ipad-keyboard-case...

Replacing the great Apple trackpads with a trackpoint? No thank you.

As much as you say that, I miss TrackPoint from my days sporting a ThinkPad. I know there are other people that agree. Once you get used to it, it's pretty nifty. You don't even need to take your hands too far away from your keyboard position to use it.

I really loved TrackPoints back in the day and despised many of the touchpads of the time. Some of them I found an exercise in frustration to use at all. But I like modern trackpads and wouldn't really want to give them up.

I have an Asus Flip Chromebook (10") and for me that's just about perfect while traveling. I don't really use the flip feature much but it's a nice size and weight. I actually think if you cut off the trackpad I'd find the typing position more awkward.

> I actually think if you cut off the trackpad I'd find the typing position more awkward.

I guess you could picture the TrackPoint like this: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/4796.jpg

Right. The OP was basically proposing cutting off all that space below the keyboard though. The typical Thinkpad design shown in that photo doesn't have a touchpad but it still has the area that people tend to use as a wrist rest.

How would you the equivalent of 2-finger scrolling on a trackpoint?

Middle click and scroll

> You don't even need to take your hands too far away from your keyboard position to use it.

But that's still the crux of the problem. The advantage of a trackpad under the space bar is you can manipulate it with your thumbs without moving your hands off the keyboard. Best (for me) is a keyboard-only interface, but if I have to use a mouse the trackpad is the closest to keyboard-only that I can get.

I absolutely agree with this statement.

As an old-timer, I remember using the trackpoint. It was very fiddly, wasn't precise and a lot of times I remember going for a mouse.

Compare that with a trackpad on a Macbook where I can do many gestures without even thinking about it. So much so, I haven't bought a mouse to use.

Yeah, trackpoints are useful, but not as a general purpose mouse/trackpad replacement.

The trackpoint on the original Toshiba Libretto worked well, it was next to the screen with two buttons on the back.

On that note, i seem to recall a netbook that came and went that had a tiny trackpad up near one hinge of the screen, and the two mouse buttons up near the other.

Edit: Ah, found it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CloudBook

I understand your sentiment, but I'm sure others would take that tradeoff for a smaller, lighter laptop.

Your comment is like saying, "No keyboard and trackpad? I won't buy the 13-inch iPad." Perfectly fine, and representative of the majority, but there are 13-inch iPad buyers who are happy to make that tradeoff.

Not as crazy as it sounds. Just use your smartphone as a trackpad or mouse. Apps already exist for this. http://www.remotemouse.net http://www.guidingtech.com/9586/use-android-as-touchpad-keyb...

http://pyra-handheld.com/ a coming-soon thing I'm waiting for.

I have wanted what this post is describing for a long time. I have used one of those small VAIOs, too. I mainly use the keyboard, anyway, so for me the trackpad on a laptop wastes a lot of space.

Don't those VAIOS only have 600px height screen? Ugh

I have a Sony Vaio P, which as the author mentions is close to what he describes.

I don't use it much anymore, but it was actually a fun device to own. I installed ArchLinux on it, with a heavily customized xmonad + plenty of customly setup apps for email/browsing/basic coding/etc to make it full keyboard driven (the trackpad/trackpoint was pretty bad on it).

It'd fit in my jacket pocket, and was a nifty little machine to carry around. The keyboard was way too cramped for long term use, but it was fun to have around.

Mah, he seems to conflate the Vaio P (unnamed, just used as a illustration) with "smartbooks". This while the Vaio P was a netbook (Windows, Intel Atom) rather than a smartbook (Android/Linux, ARM variants).

Frankly the only thing that seems to hold the smartbook category together is the use of mobile tech (iirc, the Toshiba AC100 even had a notification light for texts etc).

The blog posting seems like someone firmly hung up on Apple and wanting a smaller macbook, rather than a proper illustration of what the rest of the market has to offer.

Silly of him to use the Sony Vaio P as a illustration for the smartbook segment. The Vaio P ran full Windows on an early Intel Atom.

Anyways, it seems the author ignores that netbooks started out not running Windows, and just lumps them in with laptops because x86 (Atom) and Windows.

Frankly the whole thing just reeks of someone who has developed severe Apple myopia...

i've used laptops in that form factor and they're awful.

the current 13" apple form factor is just fine.

look at cell phones from the early 00's -- smaller is NOT the answer.

Did they have full-sized keyboards? Were they high-end devices, like $799, as opposed to crappy netbooks?

As if the ergonomics of laptops weren't bad enough already. Makes my neck tense just looking at it.

We have reached human UI/UX limitations on many tech devices. Our eyes can only see so much detail, our hands need space to type accurately and comfortably.

We need improvements in IO between human and machine to reach the next stage of technological evolution.

Interesting point of view. The full-sized keyboard on this proposed device is exactly in keeping with that. Smaller, and you can't type productively.

These have been made (with the trackpoint replaced with a touchscreen + stylus), although you don't see them much nowadays. A examples would be the NEC MobilePro 900 (on the not-far-from-full-sized-keyboard end of the scale) and HP Jornada 6xx/7xx series (on the technically-pocket-sized-but-really-slightly-too-big scale).

I regularly use a Jornada 690, with Linux installed, which I use to do some programming on when doing things like taking my mom to her doctors appointments. I don't keep mine in my pocket, but have a small bag, intended to be attached the front handlebars of a bicycle, that I attach to my belt, to keep it in.

Apple would get more love if they brought back some larger machines. A 17" portable would be a nice start.

It's not 2010 anymore, at this point making these devices smaller just hobbles them, and increases the chance the case will snap in two.

You could reduce the height of the number row by half, add that vertical space to the space bar, and turn the spacebar into 3 parts: regular buttons on the wings where your thumbs rest, and capacitive trackpad in the middle.

Add cellular support and I'll gladly toss my smartphone, which I don't use anyway. I've always just needed a laptop, I'm terrible with touch screens, very painful to use. I would carry this around and have a smart watch for basic text / calling, gps

> It would be more portable than the Macbook

Really? So that what, it fits in a purse? I personally (nothing against men who do) don't carry a purse, but I do have a backpack. And I choose to carry a full 15" MacBook Pro, because it's powerful and is an ok trade off in terms of screen size. It's perfect for me.

I know some people hate the weight, and they go for the Air, but for me the screen size is too small. This argues to make the screen size even smaller! No thank you!

Get a keyboard for the iPad Mini.

I have a 12" Macbook and an 11" Air and I think anything smaller than the Air is not really practical. I suppose if I rotate my 6s+ I could get something super tiny, then just attach a bluetooth keyboard..

But, I just don't see the point of going that small. The Macbook and Air are really light - I don't notice them much at all if I out them in my backpack (a 15" is definitely noticeable).

Anyway, it just seems like a thought exercise.

When the original Air came out in 2009 or whatever, I was amazed that they got the machine so small. When the 11" came out with the same keyboard I was amazed again. And seeing the latest MacBook it amazed me again.

Not sure what's coming next but I'm sure I'll be impressed

> And smartbooks ran limited mobile software, not powerful PC software.

They say this right below pictures of the Vaio P series, which ran Windows 7 on a 1600x768 screen. It was good for traveling, where you didn't want to use your computer but might need some desperate computer use, and it fit in a jeans pocket if your thighs aren't bloated.

>> The minibook's ultrawide aspect ratio also works better for movies, which have the same aspect ratio of 21:9

I usually watch movies while working on something else - I don't want the aspect ratio to match my screen. Stinks when it comes to utilizing the available screen space

A similar form factor existed the Psion 5 back in the past. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5

Half the battery?

Actually the author has cut essentially 100% of the battery from the MacBook Air.

Not really:

http://cdn2.macworld.co.uk/cmsdata/reviews/3595594/New-MacBo...

From the photo it looks like the quarter or third of the battery is below the keyboard. But the smaller screen is probably not enough to compensate for the loss, so yea, probably it would have shorter battery life but not by 100%...

I don't think that's a MacBook Air.

We could make the device a millimeter thicker so as to maintain the "up to 10 hours" battery life of the Macbook.

I'd like one of these just for text with an E-Ink screen, no GUI, boot straight to Emacs. What to name it though? Emacs-book, text-book, clibook...

If you could get a _nix to boot on a Freewrite, it would seem to offer what your after.

https://getfreewrite.com/

I couldn't afford the required mustache wax.

The netbook is back.

Yep, its called a Chromebook.

With a full-sized keyboard, and at at higher price, like $799.

The original Surface had a similar aspect ratio and it was borderline unusable, even with windows 8 touchmode.

Might be acceptable if you could pivot the screen 90 degrees for a nice long portrait mode.

It would be also great if they could somehow split the keyboard into two pieces for better ergonomics.

You could do that if the device has a 360-degree hinge. Then you can fold it and lean it against a stand.

Since we're spitballing ... screen with portrait orientation and a split keyboard.

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