Comment by cs702 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cs702 | Hacker News Reader

Reading this, I realized the US -- including Silicon Valley -- has many commonalities with the Free Software ecosystem.

The US is more like a messy, disgusting, noisy bazaar than a pristine cathedral:

* Strong disagreement and polarization on a lot of important issues: for example, in the US we can't agree on the role of government; in the Free Software world we can't agree on even a standard desktop interface.

* Constant arguing about the best way forward: for example, in the US, we argue on how best to fix economic issues; in the Free Software world we argue on how best to evolve a really old init system.

* Many important problems are ignored, seemingly forever: for example, in the US, a lot of infrastructure (electric grids, roads, bridges, railways, trains) are of subpar quality; in the Free Software world, many projects of extreme or critical importance are in disrepair and/or ignored (e.g., for years, PGP was maintained by a single developer who was broke).

Anyone who comes to the US expecting things to work "as they are supposed to" and for everyone to be in happy agreement on important issues is in for serious disappointment.

Yet, the messy "bazaar" model seems to work... over time. As Winston Churchill said, "you can always count on Americans to do the right thing -- after they've tried everything else."[1]

[1] http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/winstonchu135259....

The Bazaar model only works for certain things. It has worked brilliantly for the plumbing. The stuff we build all of our services and applications on. But when it comes to actually user facing apps I'd say commercial versions wins hands down.

Likewise in the real world, the US hardly seems like the best receipt for how to run a society. As a Scandinavian I'd say our model for society has worked better. It is in no way perfect. It has its own set of problems, but those problems simply pale in comparison to the gaping problems found in American society.

Of course it depends on who you are building society for. Is it for the many or the few? I'd say it is pointless to build a society which excels at giving the best life for a small minority. That problem was already solved in medieval Europe :-D

Building a society which is good for the majority of people and for the least well of is quite hard.

No

Could you please elaborate?

It's a forced comparison. Comparing free software to the US only makes sense at a superficial level. For every successful comparison there are 10x contradictions. I could compare literally anything to the US in the same vein. For example:

The US is a lot like a potato:

* it's lumpy! Both the US and a potato are irregularly shaped!

* it's brownish: the US is a mix ethnically

* it's white on the inside: the US is controlled by mostly white people

* it's high in carbohydrates: the US has a large GDP

etc.

Please, could you provide an example of any mutually intelligible comparison which is not forced, and for which there are not 10x contradictions?

Are you seriously implying that relevant substantive comparisons don't exist? There are many, for instance:

Comparing the US to free software is like comparing monads to burritos.

He pointed out the parallels between the US and Free software. You have done nothing to refute any of the parallels other than some snarky comment about potatoes which wasn't worth reading.

And most importantly there are many governments that are absolutely nothing like the free software ecosystem which gives the analogy worth.

The US is as much like Free Software as anything is. That is my point. His comparison is just random fodder based on superficial commonalities.

The US is not like Free Software in many important ways:

* The US has judges. What is the equivalent of judges in free software?

* US law is based on common law. What is the equivalent of common law in free software?

* The US has elected representatives. What is the equivalent of elected representatives in Free software.

* The US is composed of states, counties, and cities? What are the equivalent states counties and cities in Free Software?

* The US has a congress. What is the equivalent in free software?

* The US has jails. What is the equivalent of a jail in Free Software?

Etc.

I could go on and on, but the point really should be obvious by now. The comparison to Free Software is weak and most importantly, unnecessary. China is just as much like Free Software as US is.

Making your own bad analogy does not prove that a completely different analogy is bad.

Good observation, except it isn't a proof, it's an example.

It is an example. Not very relevant to the point you're trying to make though.

It's totally relevant to my point but let's ignore that for the moment. Do you agree with the original comparison? Do you think the US is like free software? Or is the US more like Open Source? Is the US BSD or GPL? Is RMS the president of free software? China is a pristine cathedral right?

Do you realize that things can be alike while not sharing every single characteristic in common? If we held that requirement we could only compare two identical things, which would be pointless.

Okay then, for the sake of the comparison's relevancy to this post, is China the pristine cathedral to the US's bazaar?

It would be in the sense of a greater emphasis on centralized planning compared to the more organic growth of many actors pursuing their own interests in the US.

If you're going to complain that China doesn't have stained glass windows and isn't a building made out of blocks of granite, then you've missed the point.

All of the following things apply to 2016 China just as well:

* Strong disagreement and polarization on a lot of important issues

* Constant arguing about the best way forward argue on how best to fix economic issues

* Many important problems are ignored, seemingly forever

Believing otherwise is vain provincial exceptionalism. The original comparison is superficial and bankrupt.

None of those things are inconsistent with the central planning / organic growth dichotomy that is what the cathedral / bazaar analogy is getting at. It's not superficial, it's just making a comparison of one specific aspect of the two cultures, not trying to be a comprehensive model that explains every single thing about each one.

Wait, if both China and the US meet those criteria then where is the dichotomy? Wouldn't they both then be bazaars?

> Reading this, I realized the US -- including Silicon Valley -- has many commonalities with the Free Software ecosystem.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and barely a comparison.

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