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Comment by pjc50 | Hacker News Reader

And people wonder why some of us haven't upgraded from Windows 7.

Win10 tries really hard to make you log into your desktop with your Live Account credentials - you can't use the store without this. Whereas if it were just leaking a local login it would be much less critical.

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You can actually have Windows logged in with a local account (normal old school account) and use the store with a different Live account.

But yes, I am quite annoyed by them requiring that I use online credentials to log in to a physical computer. I prefer to separate the two authentication mechanisms.

That would be great - when I most recently tried to use it I was told by the dialog box that entering my Live credentials would convert my local account to the Live account, and I'd need to log in with the Live password not the local one.

I'm not sure who's correct in this particular thread, but sometimes they hide the "unfavoured" approach so well that they convince people to use the new method.

In one case, I unsuccessfully tried to create just a local account in Win 8, because they had hidden it behind 3+ layers of "sign in here with your live account". I was sure that there must be a way to create a local one, but just couldn't find the right path.

Yeah, it's called dark patterns, and Microsoft makes full use of them in Windows 10. And it seems to only get worse with the recent changes they've made in the Anniversary Update, like how they hide how you could disable Cortana in searches (they turned it into a very technical option, that no "normal" person would figure out), and so on.

I for one am glad that the French Data Protection Authority is going after Microsoft, but it remains to be seen if it can lead to major changes in Windows 10 (for the benefit of the users):

https://www.cnil.fr/en/windows-10-cnil-publicly-serves-forma...

Migrated my Windows 7 Home Premium to Windows 10 Home last week (pressurized by the free update ultimatum... so their strategy works !) and my local account stayed a local account and I could use the Microsoft Store with an independent account without converting my local account.

Local accounts were not available in Windows 8 or 8.1, they only got reintroduced in Windows 10.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my login credentials to my physical PC to be different than for my online accounts.

That's false:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13951/windows-creat...

(I had a Windows 8 VM for compiling some software and used a local account.)

OK, I stand corrected. I recall that I had to use a Live account for a preview version of Windows 8 I installed on a test machine. Maybe my memory is off, I hadn't used it in ages.

Scott Hanselman had a guide on how to actually create an offline account in Win 8 (see: [1]).

It involves navigating to a "Create a Microsoft Account" screen, and then clicking the well-hidden "Sign in without a Microsoft Account" at the bottom. Quite a well thought out dark pattern, confused me at the time.

[1] http://www.hanselman.com/blog/HowToSignIntoWindows8Or81Witho...

I have seen that and it's a dark pattern, if you close the window you will still use your live credentials without changing your logon account.

I remember that happening a while back and it definitely forced me to log in with my Live account credentials from then on. I was rather miffed, but didn't bother trying to do anything about it then.

I seem to remember having a problem with a new Win8 computer and trying to use Skype (I hate Skype but lots of customers of mine use it). It insisted I use a Microsoft live account , which I don't have, to install it. Eventually I somehow managed to get an old version of Skype which stopped asking me.

Probably new Skype vs the "classic" Win32 one.

Pushing the MS Account for installing software is plain bad and it definitely won't help with user adoption like a non mandatory account would.

There's a difference between Skype and Skype for Desktop, the second version is what you should install, and is the classic Skype. The first one is a Metro app.

I am quite annoyed by them requiring that I use online credentials to log in to a physical computer

Is that substantially different from every corporate domain login credential system?

Using windows 10 since it came out, never opened Windows Store, not even once.

I've been using Windows 10 since it came out too. I tend to have everything on default settings and deliberately allowed Windows and Cortana to do pretty much everything automatically, i even have one on my computers on the fast ring...

I have downloaded Netflix, Audible, tubecast and a whole bunch of other apps from the store

and so far, all is good. fingers cross ;)

My experience of the Windows Store is of the fake knock-offs and similarly named apps that pop up as results in my start menu when I press "Start" and start typing the name of something I already have installed. They always seem to pop up for a couple of seconds before the actual application I'm searching for shows up. As a result I've come to the conclusion that I can't trust anything in the store itself and have never used it.

You can disable those search results. I'm not on a Windows 10 computer right now so I can't tell you where to look, but I found the settings fairly easily once it gave up trying to search the internet for a "settings" program. Do that and the search function will suck a lot less.

I've poked around in there. Think of live tiles as the latest version of desktop gadgets. I installed the weather channel free app, I now see local weather when I hit start.

The MSN Weather app is preinstalled with Windows 10, and has the same basic capabilities. And since you don't need to install it, doesn't require you sign into a Microsoft account. (I actually like setting up this app on enterprise users' start menu, it's a nice extra. And they don't have Microsoft accounts connected.)

The built-in weather app and tile is solid enough that I find people downloading a third party one kinda surprising.

I think I saw it on a list of windows 10 apps to get somewhere. Clicking on it gets you a radar map. Really it was half weather, half trying out the windows store experience.

There is an option when you install an app to only use your Live Account for that app. This way you can still have a local account and use store apps.

http://lifehacker.com/install-windows-10-store-apps-without-...

I've had windows 10 for a long time and didn't know you couldn't use the store with a local only user. Why? I've literally never clicked on the store button (except to delete it along with heaps of other shit in my start menu).

I genuinely cannot imagine the day that I want a thing and go to the windows store to get it. Last night I installed AutoHotKey and Notepad++ for example (both long overdue admittedly) - all through my browser. Simplez.

Just another reason not to put all your eggs in one basket. Using Firefox as browser, no Hotmail or Outlook, no login at Windows 10 installation, this all seems to have little effect on the installations I've done the past weeks.

But if you upgrade to Windows 10 from Windows 7, your existing log-on (which has no Live account connection) continues exactly as before....

It's not really a surprise if an app store needs an account. Are there any that don't?

F-Droid for Android: https://f-droid.org/

Also nearly any Linux package manager ;) (if they count as an "app store" for you)

I think the definition of "store" generally implies the ability to buy things, which neither F-Droid or package managers enable.

You're right, I didn't think of that.

Isn't it possible to buy something in the Windows Store and login just for this one purchase? Note sure though, but I think I remember doing that with Windows 8.

Yes, you can. Just make sure you never use two different log ins from the same account on your PC ;-)

Chrome's?

> It's not really a surprise if an app store needs an account. Are there any that don't?

Yeah the ones that have existed since forever: GNU/Linux repositories (Ubuntu's, Debian's, etc.). Even Ubuntu's Software Center, which you might find closer to an app store than a command line interface even though it's the same thing, does not require an account until you try to leave comments or review an application.

Then there were browser addon repositories which worked the same way, first from Firefox and later from all other browsers. (Except one of course.)

So yes, no account was the standard. Needing an account is something recent.

If you don't have to pay and therefore authenticate, it's not really a store, but only a software repository.

How many people don't even have payment info in their Google or Microsoft account? They can't pay anyway and payment info is not required so clearly that's not it.

I'd just like to download apk files from the play store, but that's not possible without an account even though there's no reason for it whatsoever. Moreover, I'd like to contribute to many apps while still not attaching payment info to my account. Currently I bought some pro versions of apps via gift cards, but this doesn't work for subscriptions (even if you have 100 bucks prepaid on your account and the subscription is 1 buck a month, and don't get me started on country locking the credit). They all want to have your data and lock you in.

I think all the major ecosystems require a log-in: Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft.

In Windows 10's case, it's only for apps. If you're happy with Win32 programs, you still don't need to use a Microsoft Account.

I'm not, but then that's why I switched to an open platform called Debian.

Your choice ;-)

Did you actually use Windows 10 you're complaining about?

I'm not complaining about Windows 10 in particular.

I'm complaining about walled gardens and application "stores" that require an account in particular, even when they don't require payment information (making them not a store at all, just a walled application garden).

And yes, I have used the Windows Store once or twice, but I don't see how that changes anything.

Does needing an account really make it a walled garden?

I borrow books and CDs from a public library: I need an account.

I borrow videos from BlockBuster or stream them from Netflix: I need an account.

I want to comment on HN or whatever: I need an account.

I want to get a job, I need an account (SSN etc).

In some cases, yes:

Want to borrow a book from another library because it's missing in yours?

Want to switch from Netflix to a different streaming provider, but don't want to lose all your history?

You can't easily because you're in their walled garden.

.. until you try to install an app, at which point you're prompted to switch over your local account. Apparently you can get round this, but it's not the obvious or default path.

Yes. Also, if you start to use Cortana (which is off by default), Microsoft pushes you into converting your local PC account into a Microsoft Account (ie link your PC to your MSA email address).

There's plenty which don't, those are just usually the ones which don't try to make you buy apps and are rather just a service for you to download apps.

The Windows Store or also the Play Store and Apple's App Store could function without account for free apps, too, as far as I understand it they just choose to require an account up-front, so that there's less friction in the moment a user considers buying an app.

It doesn't work smoothly in all cases, though. My existing local account persisted after upgrading in-place from Windows 7 to Windows 10, but not all of my apps worked afterward. The Sims 3, for example, would no longer run on my local account. I had to start using the Live account and reinstall some apps as that user to get them to work again.

>you can't use the store without this

Being honest, what would I want to use the store for?

Install free apps?

Not really a reason for using the store specifically, as you can get those almost certainly from the internet as well.

For what? Everything is available on the Internet. I have used Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 for years now and I have never felt the need to install anything from the Store.

You can do that without the store.

In my personal opinion, the reasons for using it don't outweigh the reasons against it, but either way, the reasons for using it ( / an app store in general) are:

1) Convenience: You don't have to search all over the web for your software and don't have to click through an installer when installing (because everything is packaged in a standardized way and can therefore be installed in a standardized way, too). Also, there's a centralized way of distributing updates now, meaning that not anymore each and every piece of software has to come with an auto-updater.

2) Security: If you don't install your stuff from the internet, you're also much less likely to install from a wrong source and therefore less likely to catch viruses. If there is a virus-infected app on the Windows Store, it's also possible for Microsoft to remove it. The UWP-apps that Microsoft is pushing along with their store, are also sandboxed, so again, much less likely for software to be able to damage your system.

I use a local account and windows never bothered me about it.

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