Berlin’s Startup Hub Wants to Prove It’s More Than Just a Scene
bloomberg.com
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I had so much interviews at plain old small to middle sized companies in Germany which called themself start-ups just because it was cool. But most of them were just generic consulting shops.
I don't think many people will agree on this definition.
A new restaurant that is after ultra fast growth is not a startup. It's a small business. A new software company that attempts to innovate in a small niche is unlikely to achieve ultra fast growth but it is a startup.
To me, the difference between a startup and a small business is that a startup's goal is to innovate and its success depends on that innovation sticking. Quick growth is just one (possible) characteristic of this territory.
That's why most startups tend to be in the tech sector: most innovations use technology.
That's before you get into fads. Remember frozen yogurt? On a percentage basis that growth rate was incredible, and there were attempts to franchise, although that food fad went nowhere in the long run.
start-up -- n. a fledgling business enterprise
A new company with slow growth is a start-up. An old company with fast growth is not a start-up.
There's nothing about the growth rate that qualifies a company as a start-up. Though I suppose it could seem that due to a new company having "nowhere to go but up [or fail]".
If I open a hot dog stand, I may have incorporated only a month ago, but I haven't founded a startup.
--
This reminds me of one of my favorite HN posts ever. It's about dictionaries, good and bad.
No. For that, you'll have to provide a narrative of how you will revolutionize the global fast food market and secure the fate of humanity by providing billions of people real-time access to the very best of bovine and porcine by-product nutrition (optional: include heart-warming story about Denise, a mother of 7 from Decatur, IL, who was enabled to escape a hell of drug abuse and prostitution by opening a franchise, highlighting the world changing nature f your business and elegantly glossing over the fact that the franchise owner effectively earns less than a toddler searching landfills for sources of lithium).
Allowed to fester, the spin-terrorists will rape a language to its death.
Hackernews is not the world.
That must be why this is a reoccurring discussion on HN...
What does that mean: "people who run companies that don't even think about building a product"?
What do these companies you refer to do?
A "product" is when someone identifies that a repeatable solution exists for many customers. This is not as common as one-off solutions for a particular customer.
I haven't come across any of those describing themselves as a "start-up", but I probably just don't get out enough...
A startup is usually understood to be a company which is formed to test a new market or disrupt an existing one. The fast growth thing is not necessarily true since new markets are often not there. But to describe just any new company as a startup is very misleading both in terms of describing risk, but especially to potential employees.
This isn't to knock the value of entrepreneurship: there is quite a bit of virtue in starting a company that wants to tap an existing market. All things considered, these companies will likely do much better over the long run than most startup companies which end up failing.
Zero financing rounds and not a single name in our Crunchbase entry to date, and we'll come in with a bang one day.
VCs were simply too slow to follow our pace so far (by now we grew out of their typical round size & target multiple) and we'll probably grow profitable without them.
Sociomantic did the very same thing by the way and nobody was any wiser when they did a huge exit from nowhere. Thanks to the environment, it's still pretty easy to bootstrap in Berlin and go after alternative financing sources (it's starting to change though, starting at the rents).
There's still the usual Rocket copycats and some interesting SV-style overhyped BS startups too by now that won't survive - but by and large Berlin has a lot of humble, technically excellent and hard working startups to offer. It's definitely going to survive the down-market to come.
Although we have a rather nonstandard business area (not the usual ecommerce/saas/social/gaming stuff) and have no direct competitors, we could get a good grip at it by going down several routes: talking to industry experts, comparing indirect competitors' valuations and also by extrapolating from usual relevant business metrics such as current and projected revenue, traffic, margins, growth rates, and market size.
We also talked to quite some VCs who confirmed our range to be pretty spot on in initial negotiations.
Still, the first big unexpected hurdle was that VCs were totally "blinded" by their previous expertise. They tried to apply numbers from their well-known business areas (social / saas / ecommerce) to our model, which simply didn't fit our business case. So we went out and built the product and sold it to large clients anyway.
Thing is: Our product by now outperforms the next best option for our clients by 100% with no alternatives or competitors in sight (it's a little niche-y, but still a multiple billion dollar market).
With a product like that, the second thing that we didn't expect was that we tripped the "too good to be true" sensor everywhere, raising doubts.
And when we were over it, VCs seemed to have an ego problem with being "too late", us not wanting to do a particularly large round, them not reaching their target multiple to save the fund, us being "too expensive already" or them always wanting to "advise" a team of industry veterans and second-time entrepreneurs that demonstrably knew better than them - instead of simply putting in their money and help with PR and their networks instead.
Thing is: All investors say they want a great team, stellar culture, demonstrated product-market fit, fast execution, great technology and hockeystick growth.
We brought it all to them and found out that if you know you have it and are asking a fair price for it, 99% of them are too scared to jump on board of a train that's already full steam ahead. They'd rather be the one discovering it.
What I took from it is that awesome VCs are just as hard to find as awesome start-ups.
Interesting. Have you tried to reach out to non-German VCs as well?
>We're at a 8 digit dollar valuation here
What do you mean by this, given your next sentence that there are 0 financing rounds - then how do you have a valuation? I'd like to know what you meant by 'we're at an 8 digit dollar valuation'.
>Zero financing rounds and not a single name in our Crunchbase entry to date
>VCs were simply too slow to follow our pace so far (by now we grew out of their typical round size & target multiple) and we'll probably grow profitable without them.
>Still, the first big unexpected hurdle was that VCs were totally "blinded" by their previous expertise.
all of this is completely standard. you wouldn't have experienced it if you had been in silicon valley.
your story kind of proves that VC funding is not an option in Europe.
>Our product by now outperforms the next best option for our clients by 100% with no alternatives or competitors in sight
this is a typical case in which a European company can't raise money at a normal valuation.
Another typical case is if its product outperforms the next best option by 500%. Yet another case is if it has no competition and 100% monthly growth. None of these things would let a European company close a normal round, nor would cash flow do the same.
>With a product like that, the second thing that we didn't expect was that we tripped the "too good to be true" sensor everywhere, raising doubts.
I do expect that. No European company will get an investment at a reasonable valuation for this.
>We brought it all to them and found out that if you know you have it and are asking a fair price for it, 99% of them are too scared to jump on board of a train that's already full steam ahead. They'd rather be the one discovering it.
Slight correction: 100%, not 99%. If it were 99% you'd just need to talk to a hundred investors, which you could do in about 2 weeks (10 workdays * 10 investor relationsihps per day = 100 investors.) So it's not 99%, it's 100%.
>What I took from it is that awesome VCs are just as hard to find as awesome start-ups.
Awesome VC's don't exist in Europe. Awesome startups do.
I've never heard of an even acceptable European VC.
The next time one of them wastes your time, ask them this:
"I'm afraid I don't talk with European VC's until they've proven that they're qualified buyers, since it is a waste of my time. So, I'd like to ask you a hypothetical qualifying question. Suppose you were wanting to invest in a company that had the following statistics: firstly, it received $600K in European Union funds as a grant to develop a technology, this was free money and did not need to be repaid. Second, suppose they were successful in developing their technology using this money and applied for and were granted strong international patents on their fundamental innovation, including a U.S. and EU patent. Third, suppose they've sold 1,000 products in the first 9 months, generating $1 million in sales from their first run, which they did not book a profit from. Due to strong international patents, suppose that at this stage they have a protected market and are targeting 70% margin (30% of the sales price is their cost of goods + other fixed amortized costs). Having sat down and done the calculation, you give them a discounted future earnings of $10M, based on your most conservative (lowest) targets of the number of orders that they ship, and based on nothing more than multiplying the number they have already shipped with slow single-digit growth for 5 years and then a drop to 0 because you do not model farther ahead than that. The basis for the growth is the products they've shipped in the past 9 months, and their lack of competition, their protection, and so on. For a company that had all of these assumptions, what might be a fair valuation (or range) for a $400K investment?"
Watch them not answer that question, at which point you terminate the conversation and stop wasting your time.
I came up with this example because it's the closest thing I could think of to validated, free money.
I would never talk to a European investor. If they gave me an acceptable answer to the above, I would ask for a reference. If the reference were to a successful European startup they've funded, I would send them a pitch deck and ask for a non-refundable earnest money deposit if they want to talk to me about it (something small, like a few k $.)
if they wanted to talk and did so, I would answer all their questions and tell them what terms I would accept and ask for a term sheet if they are interested.
if they offered terms I would sign it and get their money. if they didn't i'd stop giving them my time.
There is zero chance any European VC will get to the stage where they are giving you money under reasonable terms, though. what happens is you just cut them out.
Next time, just spend 3 days opening an office in silicon valley. you can fly out and have your money in a few weeks, rather than waste months on unqualified European VC"s.
would you talk to a mcdonald's cashier about selling your ferrari to him? Maybe for a minute.
Part of this affects the banking culture; it doesn't matter so much whether you lose or gain money as whether you did so following the conventional wisdom. If you lose money doing something unconventional, it's social and career death. If you lose it in something conventional like real estate speculation, that's fine, and you can keep drinking with the Right People who've also lost money in real estate.
(This is, of course, all opinion)
If I'm a VC and someone sends me, "hey, I pitched you xyz two years ago, you didn't invest. but I remember you know materials science and had worked as a trader. I'm introducing my friend, he's a chemist at MIT and he has just come up with a way to make a material that sells for $87,000/kg in any quantity for $1/kg + his proprietary sauce. he also doesn't want to destroy the market for it. I know it's a stretch but if you still have that materials science interest I think you would find after DD that he really does have the goods. I'm attaching his pitch deck which doesn't contain a lot of information. I've known him since grade school, when he was 9 he did the blades for the first wireless quad copter that streamed HD video, I don't remember the details but the alloys had a bunch of constraints and he ended up using a special plastic normally used in medical applications. Anyway he then concentrated heavily into materials science, would need some measure of coaching but is very coachable, and we talked about his project at an alumni dinner a few days ago. he casually dropped that he's doing 100k in trading sales without revealing to his buyers that he's making the stuff in his kitchen rather than trading it. I don't believe he ran a business and is a sole founder. let me know if you would like an introduction."
so what do you do?
you get that introduction, you read the pitch deck, and if it's too good to be true you fucking do due dilligence.
what does a european vc do, "oh no, this seems like free money to me. That's not what we're really about here."
filter it out.
What is an alternative financing source?
8 digit valuation according to...whom?
You are right to doubt the valuation - in fact, you would be right to question any valuation, since all parties involved benefit from inflated valuations (to a point).
It's not overpaying if they know exactly what they are doing and why: they can afford to pay for an inflated valuation. Also, value is subjective. If you go down Sandy Hill doing valuations, you're bound to get wildly different values - which one would you consider "correct" or "overpaying"?
Possible benefits, in no particular order:
* Increases chances of startup accepting their investment.
* Halo-effect on their investment. If $STARTUP is worth $X billion, then surely "they are onto something big". This in turn increases the chance of the startup succeeding
* Prestige/profit. If you were publicly buying a painting for ap speculation/resale, surely you can afford to pay 10% extra if it increases the painting's percieved value by 30%. Now you own a painting that's worth 30% more than it's "real" value (had you not paid more)
* fear of missing out on 'hot' startups.
VC's generally don't invest in snake oil or try to pawn off snake oil.
I wasn't suggesting conspiracy, my point is there is no "one true valuation" so answering the original question "valuation according to whom?" doesn't provide useful information.
>We're at a 8 digit dollar valuation here after just 2 years of hard work
and
>Zero financing rounds
Are a contradiction. Valuation isn't something you come up with your executive team or your accountant, it's the number that is deduced from an investmenet or an acquisition.
Also, valuation is by no way a measure a success, the real measure of success for a company is the amount of profit.
That would be a generally fair assessment of valuation, and shows how one can calculate valuation without direct investment by an outside party.
http://www.thelocal.de/20160729/how-the-berlin-startup-scene...
The author's glorification of the middle management and how it adds "efficient communication" makes me a little skeptical. But the rest sounds accurate.
Salaries in Stockholm are lower on average, CoL are higher, and it's next to impossible to find an apartment there. Not exactly the best environment to attract talent.
Overall Germany is more traditional, conservative and religious than Sweden and while Berlin might be an anomaly in Germany it's also the capital. Note that I don't think being ahead is necessarily a good thing and that much of the greatness of Berlin comes from being slightly crappy.
This has to do with the Ladenschlussgesetz (there is no proper English term for this) which usually forbids that. In particular the German FDP (a German party that is somewhere between liberal and libertarian) wants to abolish this law but the churches lobby for upholding it. I personally would abolish it as soon as possible.
> Grocery stores [...] don't accept credit cards
This is because merchants have to pay some amount for any credit card transaction. So they have good reasons not to accept them. In Europe there exists a much better system: EC cards. Use them instead if you really don't want to use cash (which is much more anonymous and thus should be prefered).
> Still uses paper tickets for most things.
If you imagine the data trail that non-paper tickets leave behind you, I would rather suggest to start using paper tickets wherever you live (Germans are much more concerned about protection of privacy (Datenschutzgesetz) because of having two dictatorships on German ground in the 20th century of which one was only abolished about 25 years ago).
Although I would still argue about the credit cards. Most stores / restaurants don't accept EC ( Maestro ) ... They usually put a huge sign - "Cash only".
But if they don't accept EC cards, they surely won't accept credit cards. :-)
Stockholm is far more conservative than Berlin.
So housing, it's next to impossible to find housing in central Stockholm, even for Swedish citizens let alone, ex-pats. Berlin while seemingly becoming more difficult, it does not take years like it might in Stockholm.
A pint of beer in the Stockholm is around $10-12 US and its probably not locally brewed. A wonderful local Pilsner in Berlin will cost you about $3 US.
Central Stockholm is very segregated, Berlin not so much.
How many late night places are there in central Stockholm 4 or 5?
Galleries, museums, clubs and music venues, the arts in general? Berlin, hands down.
Berlin seems to let you just have your fun as long as you aren't hurting anyone, Stockholm feels very regulated.
Bike friendly city? Again Berlin.
"Ahead" is relative.
Pilsner is name of city in Czechia where this beer is made, everything else is just knock-off ;-)
Then I suggest you don't go to any of the catholic South German states e.g. with Munich in Bayern:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laden%C3%B6ffnungszeit#.C3.9Cb...
It's worse :-)
I don't remember the last time I couldn't pay with credit card in a grocery store. It still happens elsewhere and annoys the crap out of me. It's also super annoying that many require PIN or signature instead of the contactless payment method which is faster than cash.
Mobile internet is truly shit. Not just expensive, but coverage and bandwidth are pathetic. When I was in Taipei, I don't think the "LTE" icon on my phone ever went away (including the subway).
Getting internet hooked up in a new apartment is always a complete disaster. In theory it should be sufficient to hook up the router they sent you. But at least in my (3) cases they always had to send a technician and I waited for ages.
Not saying mobile internet is great, imo it's too expensive to get a decent amount of mobile data and speed, but it's not shit.
At home, if you get cable it should be set up in a couple of days, DSL can take weeks though.
Overall D1 is much better than O2. I have to try doing speedtests, but gut feeling when e.g. searching for stuff in Google Maps is that it is much slower than what I had in Tokyo, Taipei, Hong Kong or major US cities. If Berlin wants to be all high tech and startuppy, they have to match that.
Oh and if you take the train out of Berlin, hoping to get some work done... don't bother trying.
You can buy tickets via mobile on the BVG transport app.
I worked for a startup in the dot com era that everybody knows, which was eventually sold for a large sum (not a website, infrastructure/OS). I saw it a lot - and I myself was guilty of doing it - hiring people with great qualifications but we (and I) had no idea what to do with them! We just hired them. We (and I) gave them no directions. I'm somewhat ashamed of how I myself failed back then, but on the other hand not really - at 20-something the experience just isn't there.
Slightly related, I recommend this video for a perspective on "innovation": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTC_RxWN_xo (The true history of Silicon Valley. TL;DR: Gigantic government funding for R&D during WWII made it possible, only then came private capital.)
The German management style is built on many people agreeing at the same time and doing things as good as possible which is great when you're building a train network but not so much with software
'According to General Gunther Blumentritt, such a scheme presupposes a common outlook based upon “a body of professional officers who have received exactly the same training during the long years of peace and with the same tactical education, the same way of thinking, identical speech, hence a body of officers to whom all tactical conceptions were fully clear.”
Furthermore, a la General Blumentritt, it presupposes “an officers training institution which allows the subordinate a very great measure of freedom of action and freedom in the manner of executing orders and which primarily calls for independent daring, initiative and sense of responsibility.”'
It means that instead of giving concrete orders how to do something, the leader gives order to achieve a certain goal, and it is in the autonomy of the next level of leadership to decide about how to do it. This is directly related to Clausewitz' understanding of war as something that is very much up to chance and unpredictable outcomes, rather than something that can be planned completely beforehand.
"[There is the following] implicit requirement imposed on superior commanders:
* to give their subordinates no more orders than are essential (every order given is regarded as an additional constraint upon its recipient), and: * to be extremely rigorous, absolutely clear, and very succinct in the expression of their commands."
"Few armies seem to have mastered the approach. The Wehrmacht are perhaps the premier example—a degree of competence achieved only after rigorous training under Hans von Seeckt between 1919 and 1935." So Boyd's observations about WWII are corroborated by that account.
The battle between top-down and bottom-up management styles is still pretty alive in most companies, I guess.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12196525
"How the Berlin Startup Scene Is Wasting Its Potential"
http://www.thelocal.de/20160729/how-the-berlin-startup-scene...
Also while salaries are relatively low, an experienced engineer and still earn 60k+ which is decent money because the city is still quite cheap. Many other startup jobs are paid pretty poorly though.
Consumer Prices in Berlin are 30.83% lower than in San Francisco, CA
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Berlin are 56.36% lower than in San Francisco, CA
Rent Prices in Berlin are 78.16% lower than in San Francisco, CA
Restaurant Prices in Berlin are 36.88% lower than in San Francisco, CA
Groceries Prices in Berlin are 49.39% lower than in San Francisco, CA
Local Purchasing Power in Berlin is 16.50% higher than in San Francisco, CA
(http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...)
I just checked Immoscout24 and though the average is higher it seems you still can find stuff around 1000EUR (of course there's pricier options if you want)
For a 3 room (2 bedroom) apartment of around 90m^2 (hardly what I would call big for a family) you will pay around 1000 net (kaltmiete) for a place outside the Ringbahn in Tempelhof/Stieglitz/Schöneberg/etc.
In Mitte prices will be a higher (although there are still shittier areas near Wedding where prices might actually be lower in Mitte).
Another surprising discovery is that KaDeWe is in Schöneberg as well
Also its about 10-15min into Mitte by bike or public transport.
Protip: write a script to get the latest openings on wg-gesucht and shoot an email as fast as you can. Then maybe you'll get to view it
Btw, if you google "senior developer salary berlin", you will get `Berlin earns an average salary of €57,355 per year`. [1]
1 : https://www.google.de/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&es...
Eg. I'm currently paying around 30% income tax in Norway (but that'll probably ease up towards 40% as I move into a more reasonable income bracket - and one needs to remember 25% VAT here - I'm guessing it amounts to another 5%-10% points added on top of the income tax).
This includes free health care, free education from primary school through college, subsidized pre-school etc.
Even in states like Texas, AFAIK one doesn't typically come out much ahead in terms of taxes in the US - and in general get very little in return.
Also the pensions aren't something to write home about really. (There's already politicians starting to talk that everyone should get a standard pension - no matter how much they paid into the system. Give it a few decades and we might arrive there).
You would do much better to invest that money either in your education/career/life standard or doing proper investing.
State pensions are around 50% of your work income. Even if that is only €50k per year in the end, that would be equivalent to the annuity from a €1 million private pension pot.
And it is backed not by a company which will go bankrupt twice over in the next forty years, but the taxation powers of the German government, which is famously good at balancing its books.
TLDR: The pensions are better than most anywhere in the world - though you also pay the price for it.
I'd rather put the money in a private saving plan than to hand it over to the government for a vague promise of "no worry, we'll pay you somehow back".
As has been noted elsewhere here, one of the cool things about Berlin is that there is a "scene" if you want it but if, say, Soho House[1] isn't your idea of cool then there's also a lot of alternative things going on. And plenty of people who freelance while working on side projects that might grow into startups.
The low cost of living and (AFAICT, since I'm a regular employee) the viability of tech freelancing creates a lot of space for exploring non-obvious ideas.
For instance, while the gentrified and hipsterfied neighborhoods have quite high rents compared to incomes, it's still eminently possible to live for cheap in a safe and quiet neighborhood just a few subway stops from the urban hustle & bustle. This buys you a lot of creative freedom.
[0]: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-05-15/germanys-s...
[1]: https://www.sohohouseberlin.com/en
edit: typo
It is possible to learn German but it requires huge effort and dedication and not many people are capable of that.
You will always feel alienated without the local language.
My experience throughout Europe is that people generally have enough knowledge of English that you can get through a 2 week holiday without knowing the language. But even during those two weeks you start to learn little things to make life a bit easier. I don't understand people who go to a foreign country and expect to live without learning the local language. It's hard work but not impossible and just seems arrogant.
1. You may be able to do 2 weeks there without learning the language.
2. That doesn't mean you can live there without learning the language.
The key, and I think this applies to any language, is not NOT BACK DOWN. Some things will be hugely painful, if you back down you just defer the pain. The Germans will want to be polite and helpful (and practise their own English), don't let them.
Some HNers will know about the Israeli language courses after the war, when Israel had a seven-digit number of immigrants, hardly any of which spoke modern Hebrew. Modern Hebrew is an invented language, BTW, so "hardly any" is not an exaggeration. The model that worked was three-week full-time courses where ONLY modern Hebrew was spoken. They didn't let anyone back down: Students went without food until they were able to order in a restaurant where the waiters were helpful but spoke no foreign languages (usually late on the first day).
I'm pretty sure at work they understand German, too.
Also, you can think in German at any time of the day.
Even more: Of these 80% there are surely many that also would love to get better in German: Why not also agree to converse with them in German, too?
While there is some small element of truth in it, this only holds if you are new in Germany (and mostly because of politeness). If you live there for a longer time and don't work on your German, it will turn the other way round.
My advice - if you really want to move abroad, move to the US, much less issues overall and English is way simpler up to C2 level (which gets super hard) and you can get a recognition and make a bank way easier.
That's not true. The typical German mentality is rather: They are/were willing to learn English to be able to communicate with you when you came. But now that you want to stay here for a longer time, you are expected you to learn German, too. So in other words: Some English speakers rather tend to confuse politeness (speaking English at the beginning to native English speakers when they are new to Germany) with acceptance (of having to speak in English to people that stay there for a longer time and are not willing to learn German).
It's good training in not worrying too much about what other people think of you. What's the harm really in someone thinking you're an idiot? You know it's not the case.
Swallowing your pride speeds up learning immensely. You can even have fun with it--people will see you as funny and non-threatening, which can actually translate to likability quite easily if you don't get a chip on your shoulder about it.
My heart was elsewhere the whole time, so I'm not the best person to ask :P Germany itself was enjoyable, and I've met some fairly friendly Germans in WGs. It rains a lot in some places. YMMV, good luck!
My wife needed a few weeks to be able to speak Norwegian on a conversational level, I didn't need much more than that for German (difficult to count exactly due to travelblah). Once you reach conversational level the rest of the way has a different quality — you'll need to learn more but you've conquered the cliff, the rest is a modest incline.
Recently I even got complimented by a McD employee for telling them my rather lengthy order flawlessly without any need for interruption, made my day ;-D
And btw I didn't downvote the parent. My point was mostly tangential rather than a counter argument.
You guys must be both geniuses. Either that or those "learn X language in 14 days!" books actually work.
This is very stressful. Forcing an interlocutor to speak to you in their tongue when they know your language much better than you know theirs, is basically rude, and persistence with impoliteness is stress inducing for many people. I have personal experience of this in France where people would insist on speaking to me, stutteringly, in my native English when I speak perfect, fluent, French. Thus the OPs point about the language barrier being an issue, IMO is very valid.
In particular, if you know modern Hebrew, you can mostly read the ancient Hebrew in the bible, which shows it is not truly a new language.
To quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hebrew_language&o...
"The major result of the literary work of the Hebrew intellectuals along the 19th century was a lexical modernization of Hebrew. New words and expressions were adapted as neologisms from the large corpus of Hebrew writings since the Hebrew Bible, or borrowed from Arabic (mainly by Eliezer Ben-Yehuda) and older Aramaic and Latin. Many new words were either borrowed from or coined after European languages, especially English, Russian, German, and French."
In this sense "invented" is not completely wrong.
http://www.howtogermany.com/ http://www.exberliner.com/ http://www.meetup.com/berlin-expats/
Guess one could get help and exchange info there. But I'm speaking without experience here.
Could you (and others here) give some experiences with the issues you mentioned? Doctor, shopping for something more complex etc. I can imagine it's difficult with governmental stuff, but for the others I assume there should be solutions. E.g. going to doctors in expat-heavy boroughs, going shopping in tourist-oriented areas etc. But I could be completely wrong. So please tell me about your (negative) experiences and the barriers /showstoppers.
But at end of the day you limit your options because of your handicap and it decreases quality of your life.
Germany have always been a stickler for dubbing things though, maybe they don't put as much effort into it.
There are hardly any countries that put more effort into dubbing foreign movies than Germany, but in this points Germans are perfectionists: If a dubbing doesn't use all the possible nuances that the German language allows for the best possible translation, people will complain. I've read (can't give source, it was many years ago) that among computer translations for pairs of "popular" Western language pairs, the pair "English -> German" is among the most difficult to handle. In my humble opinion this is because German is very exact in its wordings and allows to express lots of subtleties by its very free ordering of clauses. This makes it necessary to read additional things into the original text, which computers have difficulties with.
There are even people who say that the German dubbing of some American movies is yet better than the English original.
First, you have the distracting mismatch between the actor's mouth movements and the dubbed dialogue.
Second, the way an actor speaks in their native language is an intrinsic part of their performance. A dubbed performance will be different, but can never match the original (unless we're talking about a poorly acted, poor quality production).
To give an example, the Scandinavian series The Bridge has won great praise for the performance of its lead (Sofia Helin). This has been a big international hit (in the UK it was shown subtitled). Can a dubbing actor really ever inhabit a character in the same way as the original performer? (Don't forget the dubbing actor also sits in a room performing the dub, not on location like the original actors).
There is one scenario where I understand dubbing is necessary: children's films. But even here, you can notice a difference. When Disney dubbed the Japanese animated movie Spirited Away, they did a very good job with the American voice actors. However, if you listen to the original Japanese soundtrack, you come away with a different impression of the film because the Japanese language has a very different tone and inflection to English.
The problem is that often the original screenplay contains cultural references that are not known in the audience that the dubbing is made for. So you have to replace the cultural references by ones that are understood by them. The same holds for puns, word plays, songs etc. These have to be rewritten.
In this sense a dubbing (at least in Germany) is much more than a rough translation of the original spoken text, but often a reinterpretation. Thus I wrote that there are even people who say that the German dubbing of some American movies is yet better than the English original, since the translators are even more creative in the wordings than the original screenplay writers.
To give one example: In Finding Nemo, the German names of the two sharks (besides Bruce) are Hammer (hammer) and Hart (hard) (in the English original they are "Anchor" and "Chum"). Now you have to know that in German "Ich bin voll der Hammer" ("I am full the hammer") is a very plebby way of saying "I'm the greatest". If you now keep in mind that Hammer and Art were dubbed by some German comedians which have a very turkish-plebby image you will understand why the German dubbing of these scenes is much more funny in German than in the English original.
When it comes to live action movies, I stopped watching dubbed versions a long time ago, at least in situations where I'm not watching together with people who don't understand English that well.
I cannot enjoy dubbed films as much as originals for a number of reasons. First of all the voice actors rarely match the tone/behaviour of the original actor very well, which detracts from the experience.
Then there's the problem that there actually aren't all that many voice actors in major productions so I tend to instantly recognize the voice actors (or at least recognize that I have heard that voice many time before) within seconds. Finally I just don't think most dubs are very good - they feel forced, cold, detached, often times like the voice actor was bored; you just notice that they were recorded in a studio and not on the actual set.
It bothers me enough that if say, Amazon Prime Video only has the dubbed version and not the original of a movie I was going to watch, I'll just watch something else instead.
Edit: In case it wasn't obvious, German native speaker here
Some English -> German dubs which are said to be very good include most of the Monty Python stuff (believe it or not) and The Big Lebowksy.
I'm a little bit surprised: Relocating for a job in a completely different country (with a different language, culture etc.) also requires huge effort and dedication in my opinion. Why were you capable of doing this step but claim that learning German is so hard? Yes, it takes a little bit more time, but I can't see the orders of magnitude difference in required effort and dedication.
I don't want complain how learning German is hard. I only wanted to mention something that nobody says when they talk about Berling being tech hub.
You don't have this issue in Silicon Valley. Your working language is also your life language.
Living and working in a foreign country with foreign language/culture is an ongoing process continuing every single day, too.
[That said, I absolutely believe immigrants should make every effort to learn the native language, it's why I've spent so long trying to learn German before attempting to move there.]
Actually I'm german and I think to learn every bits of our language takes a huge effort. I mean we maybe don't have so many Characters like the Chinese ones. But our huge rules of grammar and special word cases makes it ridicoulus. And then there is the "Neue deutsche Rechtschreibung", which of course some things were reversed in the last years.
Basically when just ignoring all those stuff you are probably understood by the most people here even if they will likely try to correct you but I guess except a few there aren't much people that really know how to correctly use the language as a whole.
I'm German but living in the US for the last few years. I've had American friends in Germany and from what I understand, most things are pretty "regular" compared to other languages. Not that many exceptions. People tell me that pronunciation is usually pretty straight forward compared to e.g. English. There are also some weird rules that I don't recall ever hearing before. e.g. everything ending in "-chen" or "-lein" uses "das" as an article.
Not sure if German learners can confirm/deny the learning complexity compared to other languages.
Others have already noted that the other things you mentioned may not be as bad as they seem to you.
For example, I'm considering relocating with my family from Rome and would prefer to stay in the EU, but the UK isn't an option anymore. I'm not planning to move permanently, so, being sure to be able to do everything (not just work) in a comfortable enough way without having to learn the local language would be great.
There are many people who (in my opinion rightfully) complain that when English speaking people talk of "bilingual"/"multilingual" they nearly always mean "native language + English" instead of "native language + another common language". For example in the southwest of Germany many people will understand French, too. But you stated clearly that this is exactly not what you mean.
> I'm considering relocating with my family from Rome
Here also Italian + French or Italian + German would be a very natural combinations for a bilingual district in Rome or Italy (Austria, Switzerland and France border to Italy - thus these combinations would be very natural).
On a more practical level, I and my wife already speak English fluently, I have two remote teams composed with people from three different nations with whom I speak English, and having to learn eg German would make me need to use 3 different languages (4 for my wife, who is Russian). Seriously, the only shot we have at a European lingua franca at the moment is English.
Well, maybe I'll just have to move to Ireland or Canada if I actually move.
If we look at the language knowledge in the EU
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio...
51% knowledge for English is far from a lingua franca in Europe. At least German (32%) and French (26%) are also very common to know. In this sense you shouldn't think that there is some European lingua franca, but rather a small set of languages which has the property that if you know them, the probability is high that you will be understood.
But that is already true. Learn German, French, maybe Russian or English -- and you can speak with a lot of people.
Interesting. Wondering whether your native language is English. While mine is not, I'm pretty fluent in it. Why I am saying this, is because I've been learning German slowly for a few months now via the Duolingo app on mobile, and I did not find it (so far, anyway) to be very difficult. And that - not finding it difficult - surprised me a bit, because I had heard from friends in high school that they though German, for instance, was harder to learn than French (anecdote only, not data). I thought about the possible reasons for this (my not finding it too hard), and came up with one: since I know English, and German and English have some words and historical and cultural background in common, I could make educated guesses in many cases about the meanings of German words, before learning what they meant (because they were similar to English words meaning the same thing), and also in some other cases, after learning what the words meant, I could, with hindsight, relate them to English words meaning the same thing, just spelled a bit differently. This trick does not work for all words, of course, but does for enough of them, that it eases my learning. Also, I've developed a memory trick to associate new German words with known English words. It's not really anything new, just a form of association of the new word with a memorable (to me) English word or phrase, using what I think is called the memory palace method or something like that (I need to look up if that is the right one I mean).
On further thought, I agree. When I wrote what I wrote above, it was in the back of my mind, to also add that I don't think the rate of progress that Duolingo shows for me, can be even near correct. E.g. after these few months (which also had gaps of a few days now and then during which I did not use the app), it now tells me I am 14 or 15% fluent in German - which I don't think can be the case at all, even without knowing much about the structure of the language, the number and kinds of grammar rules, tenses, the number of words in the German vocabulary, etc.
(I'm probably much lower, maybe 1 or 2% is my guess, if such a thing can even be measured.)
Also, some of my school friends who said German was hard to learn - for others, were Germans (who also spoke good English), so they likely knew what they were saying.
>and while I can read German reasonably well now, I would still struggle to write or speak fluently in German.
Interesting. Will have to see what my experience is as time goes by.
>Thinking of what you want to say quickly is a skill that Duolingo doesn't really teach
Will check that as time goes by. Maybe immersion is more useful for that skill.
Interesting. A sort of logarithmic scale maybe.
>Duolingo is still great though, because it keeps you practicing every day.
Agreed.
>I'm amazed at how much more I understand now compared to when I started. It's worth persevering!
Definitely worth. I'm enjoying it. Thanks for the info.
In my opinion (native German speaker) German is at the beginning harder than French for English native speakers. After you got to some level both languages are about equally hard.
For the reason: To become fluent in German you have to know inside out how to conjugate a verb (there are some ugly verbs and tenses) and declinate a noun/adjective (in all three grammatical genders, singular and plural) in all tenses/cases, which is really ugly at the beginning for people who aren't used to it. The best way to learn this is in my opinion brute training until you can do it blindfolded.
The reason why I emphasize this is that you will not be speaking fluently if you have to think for seconds each time what the correct conjugation/declination is for the verb that you want to speak now.
As soon you got over this ugly part (which, because it is ugly you better should be learning it directly at the beginning, so that you have it in you reflexes), German and French are in my opinion about equally hard.
>For the reason: To become fluent in German you have to know inside out how to conjugate a verb (there are some ugly verbs and tenses) and declinate a noun/adjective (in all three grammatical genders, singular and plural) in all tenses/cases, which is really ugly at the beginning for people who aren't used to it. The best way to learn this is in my opinion brute training until you can do it blindfolded.
Like learning multiplication tables by repeating them out loud and/or writing them out, multiple (heh) times :)
I guess that makes sense, particularly if there are not very systematic rules that define those things, i.e. you just have to memorize it (and is that what you mean by 'ugly' - that it does not follow logical rules by which one can figure out, say, verb conjugations of verb B after knowing it for verb A?)
E.g. I realized a bit after starting the Duolingo course, that it was not clear (without knowing it already) when to use Der vs. Die vs. Das, and some other things like that; even Sie means both She and They (in different contexts) - at least it was not explained in the app, AFAIK - could be I missed some part of it and need to re-check.
I think I need to now get some proper learning books for it. Duolingo can take you only so far, I guess.
There are systematic rules for this, but you don't want to derive the result each time you want to express something. Compare it to applying a formalized multiplication algorithm each time you want to compute something from your multiplication table (up to 100) vs. memorizing the table. You have to understand the rules (just as you have to understand how multiplication works) for conjugating/declinating, but to apply them in practise you have to rote train them as often as you don't have to think about the rules anymore (because you really don't want hesitate for seconds what the correct, say, declination is).
It's pretty late for me, so I will read and reply to your and @lorenzhs's (thanks to you too) comments again tomorrow, if I have anything further to say or ask. Good stuff.
Not only usually capitalized in that meaning, but always.
> http://seit-seid.dassdas.com/
Ah, thanks. I remember now that a few days ago I subconsciously noticed this - or rather, had a doubt - because I thought I had seen "Sie" used for all the three meanings, but wasn't sure (they did not all occur in the same session of using the app). Thought I had got it wrong between the meanings She/You or She/They. Good to have it cleared up.
The first is for informal usage with familiar people, such as friends or relatives, the second for more formal usage, such as in business or with people you don't know from before, and the third is the more respectful one, such as for elders or superiors in business or people of official rank, such as a judge, priest, etc.
Yes, makes sense.
For me, learning English was effortless, and Mandarin is no longer difficult as I now have a goal and an interest in learning. On the other hand, I never properly learnt to program though I started with QBasic at the age of ten, because I had no clear goal for it. Likewise with French and Japanese, and German while I lived in Berlin - I never saw myself living in any of the three countries for a long time.
I think Duolingo helps a lot in learning because you don't need to plan out times to sit down with books to study, making it less of a chore and more a natural part of life. Learning in school is really no way to learn. For me its always been books, movies, and the internet.
At first spending time in a foreign language environment is immensely tiring. I'd be ready for bed every night at 9:30 just from the mental exhaustion, but after a while things start to click.
To start with you start to get the gist of the conversations going around you. Then you'd start to participate, and finally you'd have a pretty good idea of what everyone is talking about and would be able to converse with everyone in a social environment.
My German is still full of mistakes, and my 5 year old speaks better grammatical German than I do, but people understand me, and that's enough for me.
I do have a question, if you don't mind my asking. When I arrived in the US from India, I learned very quickly that accent and voice intonation are very important for first impressions and learning an American accent with good intonation has greatly helped me both personally and professionally. So my question is: is it similar in Germany? I was curios to know whether this was just an American cultural thing or whether it was more universal.
First: There aren't many varieties of German (and you will probably want to learn "Hochdeutsch" (high German) which is the variation that is spoken in Hannover in its purest form) - yes there are varieties, but this is not a concern for most people learning German as a foreign language. So there simply isn't such an analogue to Indian English accent vs. American English accent in German for making first impression etc., since there is "mostly only Hochdeutsch".
As long as you have a correct pronounciation it is much more important to be really certain in the grammar (the German grammar has its ugly parts which even some low-educated Germans do wrong; so if you want to make an educated impression it is important to be very certain in the grammar) and have good vocabulary. If you really are able reach this level of German as a foreign speaker, I believe there will be hardly anyone who doubts your willingness to learn. :-)
My experience, as a native speaker of US English, is that English speakers from India often fall into the category of "speak English fast and fluently, but with a strong accent that is hard for my US-trained ears to parse".
If someone with a strong accent speaks English slowly, I have time to adapt to the accent and figure out what they are saying; not so with someone who speaks quickly.
When talking with certain people from India (and Scotland), I am very tempted to just nod along instead of confessing, "I realize that you are speaking perfect English, but I have absolutely no idea what you are saying".
That being said, intonation is relatively easy in German once you understand that all letters in German are always spoken in the same way, and always pronounced (no hidden letters), so once you have the grasp of the alphabet you can pretty much pronounce anything. In other words "Hochdeutsch" (high German) is fairly easy to get to grips with.
The hardest thing is German is the grammar. You simply have to learn the articles and tenses. Even Germans sometimes make mistakes with the articles (der, die, das, etc), which can change based on the tense, verb and base article.
For many English first language speakers, the lack of English grammar knowledge is a stumbling block to learning another language (it was in my case anyway).
One point to mention is that Germans seem to be particularly accommodating to my German language failures, impressed simply that I can converse in German. I am however white Caucasian and British. I'm not sure that same would apply if I was from Tunisia and black. In other words, I'm not sure if I have an observational bias. Other nationalities and cultures may have a vastly different experience to me.
While living in Switzerland, I found that High German was not useful and so I would have to learn Swiss German to be able to order a coffee, understand commands in exercise class, &c. Swiss German is not in practice mutually intelligible with German and is for the most part an oral language, lacking online resources or even a standard orthography. Trying to learn from papers and linguistic studies was not working...so I got a tutor.
The combination of appropriate source material and targeted corrections made a huge difference in my progress and for a long time after returning to the states I was much more comfortable with Swiss German than High German.
Don't know the word for something in German? Just throw in the English word and say the rest in German. Will the person you are talking to understand what you are saying? Sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. The point is to try to speak as much German as you possibly can.
I found it helpful to make a list of words I needed to say, but couldn't. Then I'd look them up and put them on flash cards until I learned them.
Pay attention to the words other people are using when they speak to you. Sometimes you'll catch on to what the word mean without having to look them up and other time you'll need to look them up. I learned so much just from listening to other people.
When you're speaking German (or any other language you're learning), you will make mistakes and you will feel like a fool. The most important part is to not let that stop you. Keep making mistakes and keep making stupid blunders, and learn from those mistakes. Anyone who isn't afraid to make mistakes and look stupid will learn a lot faster than someone who is.
I was talking to some German students who were recounting some particularly embarrassing language mistakes an American exchange student had made. They did think it was pretty funny, but they also really liked and respected him for trying really hard to speak German, even if he did make mistakes. This same student eventually ended up speaking very good German, and I'm pretty sure it was because he was willing to continue trying despite making lots of mistakes.
Learning German will differentiate you if you don' have one of those.
Learning German is useful on many levels, it will make it easier to get through everyday life (though Germans in general will speak English quite well official stuff tends to be in German only), it will also allow you better access to the German market.
Could you point me to the programs for entrepreneurs? I run a meetup for international entrepreneurs in Germany and that question comes a lot.
http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/...
The thing is that it doesn't cover people wanting to come here to found their own startups.
Also if I understand it correctly the "high skilled" part means having a degree in Germany, that's why I mentioned the "have an Engineering degree" in my other comment.
would love to get more experiences from others, all my friends that used the blue card were for Engineer jobs and they had degrees.
First of all, Barcelona might seem to be cool for vacations but once you live there, you will see that in winters it's pretty boring, people are not happy with their lifes due to policital and economical issues. Maybe you can build your circle with expats and isolate yourself from daily problems but I was surrounded by local people, also knowing the language I could not isolate. It was unbearable listening peoples' complaints about how big fucked they are etc. Barcelona pissed me off finally. After Berlin,
- I liked Berlin two times more than I expected. I am originally Turkish, so the community here helps me in my day-to-day business. No, I am not living ghetto life and avoiding that, but it's cool to be able to communicate when I go for shopping. Now I can also communicate in German more or less, so I need less my Turkish skills but still it helps me to feel like at home. You never know who is Turkish there, the doctor, the police officer, the hipster hamburger boy. So it's cool.
- Of course economically it is much better. In Berlin you make not so less than other parts of Germany but definitely you spend less. This is the cheapest capital of developed EU countries. Many people already mentioned that.
- I like using cars. Maybe for Americans it is unbelievable but in almost all European capitals you are punished because you have a car: Expensive parking, so strict rules etc. Berlin is not one of them, you can use a cheap and good car and you will need it. You can go shopping (and then you can go to the cheapest and best one, not the nearest one to your home), you can go out of the city etc. Having car won't hurt you here.
- There is one thing that many people in Berlin did not discover: Poland is one hour away. I know that country because my GF is from there. Very occasionally we are going there to do our shopping, repair the car etc. So it is possible to lower your spending even more exploiting this possibility. If you have a car you should definitely do that. Also supermarkets there have fancier stuff and very good food.
- Well about work culture everyone already said what it should be said. Briefly I am happy here, I think Berlin will my home for the next decades and I recommend to everybody to give a chance. This is a city where you can live easily.
Anyone know if something like the Hacker Dojo exists in Berlin? A 24 / 7 hacker, coders, ideas, dreamers sort of space.
Berlin basically invented those things ;)
The other posters posted enough links and places for you, but you might also enjoy during summer for some days the CCC Camp.
First the city itself. Berlin changed drastically and is still changing. Cost of living, especially housing sky-rocketed over that time (1). The city has become hipster central with many ghettos forming (Neuköln) (2), which isn't necessarily a new problem but I saw it expand over those 3 years. If you love hipster culture its great, if not there's little escaping it unless you can get into a calm Viertel of which there are increasingly fewer. Also Berlin is increasingly poorer (3) and crime is steadily on the rise (4), and this is a palpable increase in comparison to just 4 years ago when I moved to Berlin.
But to qualify my statements, Berlin is a multicultural city like just about every other major city in Europe - you can find and do whatever you want or imagine. But the above are generally the things neglected by those trying to sell Berlin as an amazing place to live your life.
Secondly, the funding and general startup environment. Here Berlin is number one in Europe and was so even before the Brexit as the article mentions. There is definitely a huge startup network and hub of activity, so in terms of numbers and access to investors, cofounders, talent, there is a lot going on, but what I think is still lacking, and this article does a good job of mentioning it, are break-out homegrown successes - at least in terms of notoriety, i.e. Spotify. There are indeed moderate successes, companies that get bought out by US expanders or develop a moderately profitable business which are homegrown.
I think there are many reasons for this, one could be we haven't had enough time in Berlin, another one of the biggest factors I think, is that the European market is very hard to penetrate at such a high level, there are so many different cultures/languages, EU laws and country specific laws that expanding is more difficult than homogenous markets like the US or China (obviously), especially when you are a small team.
Anyways, the experience was amazing and if I could go back I wouldn't change anything. Still Berlin is not all a bed of roses, just as its not all work and no ecstatic elation and amazing exitement when you're building a new company.
1. http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/studie-zum-wohnungsmarkt-i...
2. http://www.news.de/politik/855636121/problemviertel-in-deuts...
3. http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/arbeit-und-armut-in-berli...
4. http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/polizei-justiz/statistik-d...
Source: lived there 2010-2014, am there weekly.
Trust me, normal people stay away from the "hip" as much as they can in Berlin.
I mean if you're trying to get a job at some big corporation/old industry that just needs a programmer for their IT department then probably.
But my programmer peers all got their jobs without jumping through CV hoops, etc. here in Germany. They all work for more "modern" companies than European old money though.
The latest person I hired didn't follow any standard at all :)
But to be honest - best way to get hired is still through your network.
Showers, showers, showers.
When working long hours, I shower to refresh myself and they are great for people that don't go home for a day or two.
When working on tight deadlines, might be too tired to drive and taxi/Uber not always an option.
Even in science buildings at universities having nothing to do with startups, there are showers.
The reason I bring this up is that coders are in "the zone" and I remember frequently working overnight until 5, 6 or 9 AM.
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12182965
:P
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