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Comment by FreedomToCreate | Hacker News Reader

My father is still using an iPhone 4, 6 years after its launch and is now thinking of upgrading to a 7 in the fall and I have had a 5S for 2 years now and think I can pull another 2 years before I upgrade. These phones have longer lives then they use to but Apple sales I believe will remain steady since some old iPhone user has to upgrade and they most likely will pick an iPhone. There isn't much reason to switch to Android at this point.

The only thing that could take them off there perch is another revolutionary device showing up on the scene, but I think that won't happen for another decade.

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Plus, for all the talk of "innovation" and all thrown around, has any other PC or smartphone vendor really done anything industry changing the last 15 years?

I mean except putting out similar devices to ones Apple popularized (and notice how I didn't say invented)...

I've seen Glass that went nowhere, Surface being an attempt at iPad (and capped at 1M unit sales or so), some smart watches that all together sold only 1/10th what the Apple Watch did (and are nothing to write home about anyway), anything else?

(In software and services of course, Google and others have frequently produced new stuff that spawned imitators).

I can only think of Amazon Echo -- but has than really sold that well, or is mostly a media thing?

The Surface is a pretty damn nice device that will be really great in a year or two when it's finally ready for prime time, and Apple finally deigns to do what a bunch of PC manufacturers are doing and clone it. It will be hailed as the Next Big Thing then.

I say this as someone who's been a Mac user since 2000, and finds Windows really annoying. Being able to run Serious Desktop Apps in a tablet is really amazing, and I would be using a Surface to type this right now if I hadn't had to return my S4Pro because my favorite Serious Art App ignores the first half-second or so of every stylus stroke. Instead I'm sitting in a cafe with my Air and my Wacom tablet next to it. Which used to be a delightfully lightweight portable art studio, but now feels absurdly massive.

(The Surface may not feel like a big deal to someone whose Serious App is an IDE and always needs a full keyboard anyway - but sitting on a bus, a plane, or a crowded lunch counter, with the Surface and a desktop-class art app is pretty delightful. Well, aside from the terrible battery life, made even worse by its tendency to wake up in your bag and burn through half its battery, occasional reboot-requiring Bluetooth disconnects, and unpadded stylus.)

What separates the surface and iPad Pro? I get your saying desktop applications, but from a HW perspective that are basically the same device and the OS is equality capable. It seems more like the Surface just has better applications for artists, unless I am missing something.

I don't think you're missing anything. Having the right apps matters a lot than the OS capabilities.

Very much agreed. I had a Surface Pro 3 for two years and sold it to get an iPad Pro 9.7 a few months ago.

Much happier with this. Yeah, you can run Photoshop on the Surface, but for just sketching and digital painting, Procreate costs $6 and is far more touchscreen friendly.

Once in a while I miss a piece of desktop software, but I have an old MacBook Air that I can get out if I really need blender or something.

The way things are going, I see all parties approaching zero sum. Hardware is nearly identical and software stack is approaching too as everything is moving into web apps (see Progressive Web Applications (where Apple is in fact lagging)). Serious Desktop Apps is not such a big thing anymore. iOS has all the Serious Desktop Apps already. Android too. So does MS.

Sure there will always be some legacy code done in MS which is probably easier to port from 7 to 10 (and onwards) than into the web stack. But legacy is not what accounts for growth as so much new software is done on web stack.

Also, if you look this way, Chromebooks also compete in this space.

>The way things are going, I see all parties approaching zero sum. Hardware is nearly identical and software stack is approaching too as everything is moving into web apps

For the staff I do (image, audio, video, programming), that couldn't be further for the truth.

For the rest, that stuff is technologically trivial to begin with (email viewing, writing a document, creating invoices, etc).

The Surface is a laptop crammed into a tablet shell.

An iPad Pro is a tablet.

So the Surface has more RAM to work on serious projects, more CPU to do them with, and... a far greater hunger for power because of that. Like, 3h of continual use is a pretty good day.

It's also got an OS that is trying really hard to work as both a tablet OS and a desktop OS. Windows 10 is not quite there yet IMHO but it comes pretty close; another year or two of development and it'll be there.

For artists, "runs the Adobe suite" is something of a killer app, and has been since version 1. For other people? Well, what's that one app you really need a desktop/laptop to run? Maybe one with a limited version for tablets, maybe not. You can kick back on the couch with it now. I see a lot of people on /r/surface talking about how they use it for all their note-taking; it's got surprisingly good handwriting recognition, and is, again, ultra-super-portable.

(I hear it also does surprisingly well with games; plug it into your big screen's HDMI input with the casualness of bringing a tablet into the living room, instead of setting up a big noisy Gaming PC, and have fun. I never tried that during my time with it so I can't speak to how well it actually does. I literally did not install anything on mine besides Adobe Illustrator, Evernote, and a few programs for remapping keys/putting hotkeys on the screen.)

It's a pretty serious step into the world where you have one device that works as both a tablet you can poke at with your fingers, and a Serious Productivity Device that runs whatever twenty-year-old monster app that you've been using so long you don't even have to think about half its keyboard shortcuts.

It's not fully-baked yet, Win10 is a mess that still drops you into horrible little control panels from 1995 now and then, some crucial UI elements vanish if you use apps designed for tablet usage in "tablet mode", but it really felt like something magical in the same way my first iPad did.

The surface pro doesn't have a rigid hinge on the keyboard does it? I'd love to get one to replace my inspiron hybrid that doesn't really work as a tablet but this is a pretty big limitation for me.

You might check out the Surface Book instead

The problem with that (apart from the price) is the 13 inch screen. That and the weight are the biggest issues I have with the inspiron.

No it doesn't, but I've never felt that as an issue though. The Surface Pro 4 has one of the nicest keyboards ever to be that small. It's much better than a lot of "real" laptops imo.

Two of my biggest use cases are sitting on public transport and lying down on the couch or in bed and using the keyboard. I'm not convinced the backstand would work well enough.

I really should loan one from somewhere/someone, it might not be the problem I'm imagining it to be, but it's a lot of money to spend and be wrong.

If those are your use cases I don't think you'll be happy with a surface pro tbh.

Surface fails for gaming (ex: no VR) which is why I keep my home Desktop around for. Sure, for work I use Windows, but a single tiny screen again makes it near useless for coding.

Which means casual web browsing. Which is where the iPad Pro crushes it. Better battery, screen, lower weight, etc. I get the Windows idea, but I know a lot of people that replaced their on the go laptop with a smartphone because if your going to compromise for form factor it's because your not doing serious work.

People have been saying that the Surface will be nice "in a year or two" for more than 2 years.

Whatever Intel and Microsoft do, Apple will always have a cleaner OS, a more efficient CPU and it's a more approachable product.

I sure ain't gonna argue with that. My time with a Surface mostly just made me wish Apple would deign to release something in that form factor so I could stick with a prettier OS.

I've been using Windows tablets for 3 years and they've been extremely nice the entire time. Among my collection, I have the original Surface Pro and a Dell Venue 8 Pro which are pretty old.

They're both easily more useful to me than any Apple product I've ever owned. But Apple products are nice if you like walled gardens and option-less, featureless software.

I usually recommend Apple products to home users who have simple needs. That shit would never fly in a business though.

I work for a very wealthy man, and he bought everyone in the company an Amazon Echo because he thought it was a fascinating device. Honestly I agree, it's a very clever gadget and I constantly find more things to use it for. For instance, I just fit out my apartment with Phillips Hue lights, and when I walk in the door I ask Alexa to turn on the lights, and the whole place lights up. Give it a try

>For instance, I just fit out my apartment with Phillips Hue lights, and when I walk in the door I ask Alexa to turn on the lights, and the whole place lights up. Give it a try

Yeah, but that's hardly different than the clapping to open lights thing though, is it?

It's pretty different. Not just because it feels different, but also because it's hands free, so you can do it while e.g. carrying a baby.

I don't understand the obsession with voice control.

If you seriously can't just turn on a light switch, wouldn't you just want your phone to use geo-fencing to automatically turn on the lights when you get home AND it's night time?

Then again, I don't understand a lot of this home automation stuff personally. If we come home and it's hot, we turn on the air conditioner. If it's dark, we turn on the lights. These are hardly difficult tasks for a child, much less an adult.

In the case of the Hue (and presumably other smart LEDS), you can have multiple scenes, which is a killer app for voice control.

I think we have very different uses for lightbulbs.

Except if you're going for a "70s sexy purple coloured bedroom with Barry White playing" or "Acid party lightshow for the Timothy Leary society" on demand, how is "multiple scenes" even remotely a "killer app for voice control"?

>Then again, I don't understand a lot of this home automation stuff personally. If we come home and it's hot, we turn on the air conditioner. If it's dark, we turn on the lights. These are hardly difficult tasks for a child, much less an adult.

Yeah. With the exception of disabled people (where those could be very valuable) for me it looks like a solution to a problem nobody had and nobody much cares about now that it's solved. Contrast to e.g. washing dishes.

(Oh, and by nobody I mean: aside from statistically insignificant outliers).

The one place I can think of that this might be useful, is where you already use a remote control and you're doing other things e.g., a geo-fenced trigger to open/close an automatic garage door/automatic gate.

That I could probably use - we have a ~6m wide rolling gate and are considering motorising it, as opening a gate in the rain in Thailand is basically like going diving without a wet-suit.

However, even that would need some decent consideration, and its entirely possible the standard remote system is more fool-proof.

Siri also can turn your Phillips Hue lights. From your writ.

In fact, with iOS 10, you can arrive at home and Siri will automatically turn on your Philips Hue lights for you.

Chromecast and the idea that a TV is just a "dumb screen" is fairly successful.

VR might become a thing.

Chromecast isn't Just an Apple TV only with AirPlay?

No. How much does an Apple TV cost, and what do I do with the TV I already have?

$99 compared to $35 for much better hardware and much more options.

>and what do I do with the TV I already have

You keep it. The Apple TV is a set-top device, not an actual TV.

> The Apple TV is a set-top device, not an actual TV

Ah, sorry, did not know that. The name suggested to me that it's an actual TV. My bad.

Now I see, a set-top box does quite render a TV just a dumb screen. And similar devices/boxes/ideas did exist before, though severely limited by accessibility and expertise needed.

The Chromecast though — as I see it — truly presented that "just a dumb screen" idea in its simplest form. It's small, and thus ultraportable; it screams "plug me!" (into an HDMI port, that is); and makes that dumb screen accessible to a much larger range of people.

If I were to put it simply: Apple TV is to a Nokia Symbian phone, as the Chromecast is to the iPhone 1

yeah but it's more popular than Apple TV

For me, it's very different. With an Apple TV, the Apple TV is intelligent. With Chromecast, the display is dumb and all logic runs on the device casting to it. It's kind of like a bluetooth speaker in display form. That's a real innovation in my eyes, and it feels like a much better model.

I think we need to point out that you personally have a strong pro-Apple bias that can be clearly seen in your comment history.

Also that the whole "Apple is the only one who innovates" sentiment is a really old piece of fanboy pap. Seriously, it's ancient and it couldn't be further from the truth.

First off - Apple bought, borrowed and stole a bunch of stuff that already existed and put it together to form a product that their competitors followed up with almost immediately. And then their competitors took away 80% of the market.

So Apple made a bunch of money. Yay! Good for them I guess? Good for you? If you own stock maybe...

Meanwhile, Amazon changed the entire world with AWS. Also Kindle. Windows tablets in general are killing it (you only counted the Surface brand, why?). Google started a whole new genre of product with the ChromeCast. Smart TVs changed the way that tons of people watch TV.

The list goes on and on and on. Try googling something like "most innovative products" and you'll find that most of the items on the lists are not invented by Apple.

I think you are vastly underplaying the Surface and the entire generation of so-called "hybrids". Also, the flat design movement affects everything now, not just the tech industry. Then there's the cloud...

Honestly, there's probably more examples, but the point is you're view is just a bit skewed.

I think this is your personal preference. After using a 6S for a few days, going back to using my 5S is painful.

I can second this. My wife has a personal 6S, her work phone (they pay for the plan, but not the phone) is a 5S we had laying around. She hates going on international business trips with that phone (we could swap the SIM), but "it's so slow", "it doesn't work", "i hate this phone" are common phrases with extended usage.

Downgrading is always hard. Even minor differences in speed/fluidity will seem much more accentuated.

I like how every generation of every phone is marketed as "This time, the camera does true colour!" - I wonder how much real difference there is between gens.

> "This time, the camera does true colour".

... this just sounds like commercials for detergents.

For what it's worth, I also use an iphone 4. I like the size and don't really care about apps that require a more recent ios version.

Unfortunately, it no longer accepts my off-brand charging cable, and even using a (borrowed) official Apple cable results in the dreaded "accessory might not be supported" error.

The repair place cleaned out the port and says the battery is fine. Most likely the port itself has broken ... and that part is not replaceable :(

Now I'm limping along on a loaner phone from a friend and torn between buying another 4 (or 5), or buying a 6 in 2 months after the 7 comes out. :(

My wife's old iphone 5, which is now 3 years old, now has a swollen battery. YMMV.

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