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Comment by someone7x | Hacker News Reader

I went to ngconf this year and two of the talks that stood out to me were given by women.

One was the angular materials talk / demo and it was amazing. The presenter was exuding tech prowess, I was blown away by how easy she made it look to make a dog adoption website. One of the best talks.

The other was by the CEO of girl scouts giving a patronizing 5 minute talk about how we need all help women in tech succeed and change ourselves so the world can change for the better. One of the worst talks.

I had those in mind when I read the article and for that reason I think I can see where she's coming from. When a woman just gives a tech talk, it's just a tech talk incidentally given by a woman. Isn't that the goal? More talks like the first one I described?

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I had to look for the best talk you've mentioned.

Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRiV_b3WsoY

Very good talk indeed.

What's that? "Hey, this is how we quickly engineer simple, yet inaccessible, websites whose drop-down menus break without Javascript? Look!: Your browser only needs 500MB of RAM and 2 seconds of CPU time of your laptop executing the jumbled piece of Javascript that outputs this otherwise trivial HTML and CSS without regard to what these standards actually are intended for!" "Loading..."

tangential argument identified, watch out for this angular hater who appears slightly off topic.

Inaccessible? Very large markets have access to Javascript and 500MB of ram. If you can reduce costs and time to market you have created value. Even if the result doesn't match some unobtainable technical perfection.

Well, I don't think it's the goal of a CEO of a social organization to give a talk on tech issues. Their focus is on social issues, so I don't see this as a good example.

Perhaps then she shouldn't have been giving a talk at a tech conference.

That falls under the purview of the organizers.

But it's well within the public's right to criticize them for doing a bad job at.. 'purviewing'.

I said nothing contrary to that.

The choice of who speaks at a tech conference is at the discretion of the organizers. So, criticize the organizers, not the speaker.

To say nothing of the fact that it doesn't seem coherent to distinguish between "tech issues" and "social issues," this literally only makes sense if you think that the lack of diverse folks in tech isn't a social issue. That's deeply, deeply wrong. Of course it is a social issue.

I didn't say anything contrary to that.

What would you expect a male CEO of a social organization to talk about at a tech conference?

I suspect that while social issues might come up, the expected talk would be the male CEO focusing the talk on running his organization and the tech that is involved. Perhaps the importance of competent tech or something or another. The actual social issues would merely be highlights, and he'd probably skip talking about the male experience in tech.

I'd understand if she were talking about tools they were using to get young women and girls interested in the tech field, as I'd expect this sort of thing with someone involved with Boy Scouts - but this doesn't seem to be the case.

I wouldn't expect the male CEO of a social organization to be giving a talk at a tech conference.

I would expect the CTO/CIO to be giving a talk at a tech conference.

Perhaps it is perfectly fine for people to comment on the fact that women whining about this stuff is the worst possible approach to solving it. That the author's desire to be brought in to actually talk about tech is the correct position if you want to make real headway and that her insta-delete policy is brilliant.

One of the problems with being a woman in a tech environment is that there is already too much focus on the fact that you are a woman. Like that is something bizarre. Putting additional focus on it and allowing you to only talk about that and not about your actual professional expertise is all kinds of problematic.

Some people are completely lost on the idea of intent vs the result. If we're not 50/50 on gender balance apparently we're all super racist.

It's pointless to argue about whom to blame as it is to defend oneself against accusations of blame. Fix the problem, not the blame. If there is no gender parity, there is a problem. You didn't do it, I didn't do it, but it still needs to be fixed.

>If there is no gender parity, there is a problem.

This seems to be an extraordinary claim made in the complete absence of evidence. Is it a problem that there are more women going into early childhood education or biology, but more men going into petroleum engineering? Why? Why aren't men and women allowed to express their preferences without it being pathologized?

Right. And I'm all for encouraging more people to get interested in this industry, but I don't do it by pointing my figure at all of the people already working in this industry.

It wouldn't be a problem if inequality wasn't influenced strongly by negative factors for women. The tech industry is rife with evidence of hostility toward women; IT Barbie and gendered toy marketing are other examples of how women are not on equal footing with regards to entering this industry.

And there is also the problem of women being paid less to do the same job.

To paint a picture that says the current landscape is "normal" is to overlook a lot of broken things.

>And there is also the problem of women being paid less to do the same job.

How many times does the "wage gap" need to be debunked before people stop spreading it?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-do...

http://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-ga...

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-...

I find it's a really convenient indicator that it's time to excuse yourself from a conversation.

Three articles by the same person from the American Enterprise Institute and then some obvious opinion pieces with restricted sampling sizes.

Imo, the smoking gun should include a gun and it should probably be smoking.

There definitely are many problems and things that could be improved, however, the point is that even if all of those problems would be fixed, there would be a gender disparity in choice of occupations.

The GP statement "If there is no gender parity, there is a problem" is strictly false, even in an ideal world managed by fairies where all these problems are totally fixed, we would not observe gender parity - it would for most professions be much closer to 50/50 than nowadays, that's true, but it would not be at 50/50.

  even if all of those problems would be fixed, there would
  be a gender disparity in choice of occupations.
  ...
  it would for most professions be much closer to 50/50 than
  nowadays, that's true, but it would not be at 50/50.

1. I'm pretty sure reasonable people consider something "close enough" (like 46/54) to be gender parity. I understand that you read the statement as being strictly 50/50 but prose != computer program; maybe read what the GP was trying to say when reading.

2. On what basis are you assuming there would be a gender disparity, all other things being equal? (There isn't.) Can all other things be equal? Probably not perfectly, which is why most would consider "close enough" parity to be a win, but we're certainly not close now.

re: 2, and please forgive the slight necroposting.

That men and women might be biologically predisposed to find certain pursuits more attractive than others should not be controversial.

But even if we cast biology aside, and assume (against all evidence) that differences in preferences are due solely to socialization, is that bad? Is it bad that women feel more drawn to caregiving careers and men to analytical ones? Even if, which I do not for a moment believe, these differences in behaviour and preference were due solely to socialization, so what? As long as people are happy and fulfilled, why would that socialization be a wrong that needs righting?

> and gendered toy marketing

Why don't you go into the toy business with androgynous products and let's see how you do ?

> Why aren't men and women allowed to express their preferences without it being pathologized?

Because those preferences are mostly the result of sexism.

In 1970, there was no law against women being doctors or lawyers in 1970, yet less than 15% of graduates in those professions were women. Many people said the exact same thing you're saying now: oh, these are just natural preferences and aptitudes. Yet today, women make up 50% of graduates in those professions? Did something change in their genetics? Or did those professions just become less sexist?

What the heck explains 50% of accounting graduates being women, but less than 20% of CS graduates? Some weirdly specific gene?

>Because those preferences are mostly the result of sexism

Another extraordinary claim made in the complete absence of evidence.

Are you claiming that men and women don't have different preferences? Are you claiming that Iran, where 70% of engineering students are women, is less sexist than the US?

>Yet today, women make up 50% of graduates in those professions? Did something change in their genetics? Or did those professions just become less sexist?

So medicine, law, education, biology, veterinary science, and chemistry got less sexist, but philosophy, physics, and engineering didn't. That's your claim. That you've made, again, without a shred of evidence.

> So medicine, law, education, biology, veterinary science, and chemistry got less sexist, but philosophy, physics, and engineering didn't. That's your claim. That you've made, again, without a shred of evidence.

Yes that's my claim, and yes there is evidence for it: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-.... From 1970 to 2005, the proportion of women medical and law graduates went from 50-10% to nearly 50%. The proportion of computer science graduates went from 15% to 35% in 1985 but dropped below 20% in the 2000s.

There are only three possible explanations for that data. (1) certain industries got less sexist while computer science lagged behind; (2) society got less sexist about women going into certain industries; or (3) womens' biological preferences changed dramatically over just a few decades.

(3) is ridiculous, so the answer must be (1) or (2), which are both the product of sexism.

(3) is ridiculous because it's an insane strawman that you set up solely to be ridiculous. You've defined any non-biological change in preferences as sexism. And if that's the definition you want to use, then "sexism" sounds like a perfectly normal and acceptable part of society.

You are claiming that physicists are sexist but biologists are not. You are claiming that philosophers are sexist but doctors are not. This is an incredible claim, that requires incredible evidence. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

Conversely, I'm claiming that as women have become more free to pursue whatever career they want, they have self-selected into certain fields that appeal more to them than others do. This is a very common sense claim. It requires no special pleading or special evidence.

> (3) is ridiculous because it's an insane strawman that you set up solely to be ridiculous.

No, (3) is insane because it implies that biologically-driven preferences can change dramatically in just a few decades.

> You've defined any non-biological change in preferences as sexism.

That's (2), not (3). And I'm not sure what else to call socialization that discourages a particular gender from pursuing a high-reward field like computer science. I'd certainly call it sexism for men to be socialized to avoid well-paying jobs in nursing.

> they have self-selected into certain fields that appeal more to them than others do.

Why do they prefer to forgo a field like computer science or engineering? Is it because it's mathematically intensive and detail oriented? In that case, how do you explain half of all accountants being women? Is it because women care less about making lots of money? But plenty of women go into medicine and law. The "women prefer to forgo a popular, well-paying field" theory only makes sense if you don't bother to ask "why?"

And it's hilarious that you keep criticizing me for not offering evidence, when your whole position seems rooted in "women prefer certain fields, because [???]". Seriously, what goes in that box?

>No, (3) is insane because it implies that biologically-driven preferences can change dramatically in just a few decades.

That's the strawman. You've said either everything is sexism, or everything is biology. Then you've used the fact that clearly biological preferences have not changed in a couple decades to suggest it must therefore be sexism.

Somebody who's apparently a lawyer should be able to recognize how terrible that logic is. So you're either being disingenuous, or you haven't thought to examine your reasoning.

>And it's hilarious that you keep criticizing me for not offering evidence, when your whole position seems rooted in "women prefer certain fields, because [???]". Seriously, what goes in that box?

Your box: sexism, and only sexism.

My box: absolutely everything that goes into people having preferences for things.

Seriously, your reasoning here is atrocious. The null hypothesis is not "there is pervasive social discrimination against women that prevents them from entering this field", and yet that's what you leap to for all explanations for everything.

>Is it a problem that there are more women going into early childhood education or biology, but more men going into petroleum engineering?

Don't the petroleum engineers make more money than the average biologist?

Which might explain why men, who are far more motivated by money than women are, would seek to enter the field despite it being a much more difficult degree and arguably less rewarding career.

Sexist. ;)

I do wish we made as much of an effort breaking racial and class barriers in this industry.

Unfortunately I have sat in on hiring discussions trying to argue for why we should hire the strongest engineer and my colleagues in the room are trying to come up with reasons not to hire because the candidate was black and/or working-class.

You had colleagues who didn't want to hire someone just because they were "working class"??? Seriously? Were these colleagues a bunch of fedora-wearing hipsters or something?

I would actually argue that classism is far and away the worst problem in this industry.

It just plays out in ways that you don't expect. Hiring mostly grads from top schools is exactly that.

In my circle are a lot of junior and fresh out of school developers and one guy I know who killed it in his interview was ultimately not hired and told it was because he didn't "look like a developer". He dressed in normal business casual attire. Another friend of mine who is a significantly worse developer interviewed (and struggled through his interview) for the same job and ultimately was hired because he fit in with their hoodie-wearing, ping-pong-playing frat-bro, drink every day at 4pm culture.

There's a fine line between "culture fit" and "cultural homogeny". Fortunately I know that hiring a diverse team is the best way to cultivate a strong team.

> hoodie-wearing, ping-pong-playing frat-bro, drink every day at 4pm culture.

A lot of people, including myself, would be glad to be excluded from such a place. I don't wear hoodies, play ping pong, act like a bro, or drink every day, and I especially don't come to work to do those things.

It's nice when an office has beer taps and ping pong tables, but those things don't bring me in to the office every day. Good coworkers and a good environment for working is what makes me want to go into the office.

I am 100% with you, but for "startups" this is increasingly normal. My friends needed jobs and the market is rough for juniors right now.

Add me to that list.

All I want from a workplace is a good computer, somewhere quiet to work (preferably with a door but I don't want to spark that debate, it's tiresome), an efficient manager who ensures a) everyone knows what they should be doing b) communicates a) effectively c) clears obstacles.

I never found it so I started a company (of which I'm one of two employees), it's not without challenges but it largely beats working for other people.

What are these "doors" that you speak of? I've seen them on the entrances to conference rooms and, of course, to get in the office itself, but I can't imagine why anyone would want one for themselves. ;)

Are you hiring? (I'm only somewhat joking there. I'd practically kill for a small office of my own.)

My office cheated and made the doors glass.

Massive sliding glass things that are cumbersome to open and close and very noisy. They might as well not even be there.

Also the walls are glass, so you can see and hear everything in the adjacent offices.

This my office - http://imgur.com/a/H7fxb

I've never measured it but it's around 300sq/ft, anyone I employee in the future (one day..) will get at least that much space, a budget to buy whatever computer gear they want and can have any desk/chair they want (I'll even build them one).

The cost of that stuff to the cost of a developer salary is a rounding error - I understand the stupid reasons companies skimp on that stuff but they are just that stupid.

> A lot of people, including myself, would be glad to be excluded from such a place.

Me too, but then I'm far enough along in my career that I have other options. I mentor a number of younger people, and it's very concerning to me that they might have to work at a place like that. Or, worse, get turned down because they're not the right demographic.

I'm with you on this one. I actively avoid applying to companies that advertise their "culture" as a perk of working there. I want to work in a workplace, not a daycare center for underdeveloped young men. And I certainly don't want to go on company retreats where everyone wears the same T-shirt.

I don't know — ageism?

Yeah, that too.

If you play Blizzard's latest title Overwatch you'll probably have complaints about balancing issues. If your post on their forums you'll likely get a response akin to "the statistics show a 49/51 spread, it's balanced!".

Why don't people realize that 50/50 won't actually make them happy? Ever.

If sexism in society does not cause a non-50/50 gender balance, what does? It must be innate preferences or abilities. I.e. the explanation is either nurture or it is nature.

Some people are willing to easily chalk up the differences to nature, without much in the way of concrete evidence. Others see dramatic changes in the representation of women in various professions over just a couple of generations,[1] and conclude that society must be driving the change, not genetics.

[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

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