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Comment by potatolicious | Hacker News Reader

My main fear is that China will use this opportunity, as the Chinese proverb goes: "kill the rooster to warn the monkey" - i.e., arrest/charge a few higher-level Google China people (Chinese citizens, they won't touch Americans).

Public opinion in China re: Google is very, very much sided with the Chinese government - people in general believe Google to be bullies pushing their American-style beliefs down their throats, and the people I've spoken to almost unanimously think that it's about damned time Google left China.

If a few key people are arrested/charged for conspiring to violate the law, it would be a major PR victory for the PRC domestically ("government stands up to Western bullying tactics, no safe refuge for collaborators" and the such), not to mention potentially warding off other companies trying to make the same stand.

Interesting times.

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I'm just wondering where you get this public opinion, which is quite different from what I heard. And I'm in Shanghai, China.

See my other post below, but to add:

A lot of what I'm basing this observation on is poking around in Xiaonei (Chinese Facebook knockoff), the chatter in there is alarmingly (and almost militaristic) anti-west. This may be because the part of the social graph I was looking at was mostly upper-class Chinese (being that my main "in" with the Chinese is international students/expats, who are much better off that most).

It is likely (in fact, most probably) that the working class Chinese would have entirely different views.

The wealthier off probably are more invested in their national identity.

Very interesting that you mention militaristic. Been observing similar attitudes and frankly it scares me.

Just nationalism.... the tea baggers are just as vitriolic...

Not sure why you got downvoted - I would say the comparison is apt. I've seen some disturbing things on Xiaonei, things like a map of the USA with a gigantic PRC flag sticking out of it, and other bits of aggressive nationalistic posturing.

Not your parent poster, but his comments were very similar to what I heard in Chongqing, which is more traditional and less cosmopolitan than Shanghai/Beijing.

My friend in Beijing has a completely different attitude.

Tiny sample size, just my personal experience.

Where do you get this information about public opinion? My experience is that the white collar workers who use Google side with Google... and nobody else knows what Google is.

I went to college with a large number of Chinese international students, my ex-gf was Chinese (and thus my circles are full of them), plus I am Chinese (well, Taiwanese, but shhh)

Most internet users in China are well aware of who Google is - though Baidu still has a strong grip on the search industry than ol' Goog. The overwhelming opinion I got from the Chinese I know when this issue first surfaced in January was "good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out".

Remember, the younger generation in China right now almost religiously, dogmatically believe in the party line. It's frightful.

I live and run a business here in Beijing. The majority of my customers are young adult mainlanders (white collar, 18-35 years old) and my employees are mainlanders as well. Also my girlfriend of 6+ years.

I don't find any of what you say to be true. Especially the part about religious and dogmatic belief in the party line - most of the Chinese I deal with find the gov't obnoxious and untrustworthy. Of course, that could vary with socioeconomic class, but even my relatively young workers, who are of a different social group than my customers, seem to feel that way as well (poison milk, bribery scandals, etc). In my experience, the people who are supportive of the party are usually older (40-50+).

Odd that our experiences are so different, and I'm not sure where we'll be able to find objective data to resolve the differences in information.

I think the different experiences comes down to socioeconomic status - my impression comes from Chinese expats, in particular international students. This demographic is best summed up in a single word: "over-privileged"

These are the direct beneficiaries of the current regime, and I even personally knew a couple whose parents were unabashedly in the bribery business. They all tow the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S

I'm glad to hear that "normal" Chinese aren't nearly as bad as the ones I've met. This gives me hope.

About the poison milk/bribery stuff though: even the people I know don't agree with these things, and are more than willing to admit the government's failure in preventing these things. However, if you dare bring up Western-style agricultural/industrial policies as a means to mitigate this sort of thing, you are in for some major hostility. This may be unique to the demographic I talk to, but basically only they are allowed to criticize the Chinese government - if you represent some kind of western ideology you're frowned upon.

But I don't think it's an issue of socioeconomic status. My point in mentioning my business was that I need to understand my demographic very thoroughly (I work 7 days a week catering to their needs). Many of my customers have studied abroad and most of them work in the Central Business District here for large multinational corporations. My demographic also includes students at elite Chinese universities like Beida and Qinghua. And I have yet to encounter what you are describing among them. Maybe the closest is one guy who wanted to climb the CCP ranks to change all the problems he saw with the current system.

> They all toe the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S

You are surprised by this? I'd be surprised if it wasn't like this. It's the party that will be getting them into leadership roles; of course they will support it with everything they have.

Maybe the way you criticize triggered their defensive reaction?

I was an international student myself and have no problem criticizing the government with my friends (Chinese or otherwise). But if someone comes in with harsh tone, I will in all arms defending my country. And I find this common among citizens of most countries.

I'm a college student in Shanghai, and my classmates and friends' attitude towards the party is almost opposite to what you said, I'm afraid.

As to what other people say in Xiaonei, which is a site I'll visit everyday, many people there are complaining about the network censorship in China. On the other side, it's also a site censored by the government, which means users' comments, blogs and updates will soon be deleted if they contain illegal keywords. It doesn't allow free speech at all. So what you see may not represent the majority.

On the other hand, many of us has access to twitter, using SSH tunnel/API/proxy or something else to jump over the wall. And what you see on twitter may differ greatly on what you see in Xiaonei. Sorry for my poor English :P

Your English is just fine, essentially indistinguishable from native speakers :)

I've seen the same thing. My cousin's friend (Chinese) who is in Canada for school acknowledges the Chinese gov't has problems, but is even more anti-west. And from what I've seen on the internet (www.chinasmack.com) the "netizens" don't see the chinese government favorably either.

This is misleading.

Among the posh, well-educated elites who aspire for jobs at US MNCs this may be true.

The rest of the masses are very much one-sided in support of the CCP. At the very least, even if they are sympathetic to Google's cause, at the end of the day the masses will always believe that China (and the CCP by extension) > Google (or any other western MNC).

That is the reality for the vast majority of Chinese - both online or otherwise.

The China vs Google issue is not really about internet freedoms in the eyes of the polity as it is in the eyes of westerners. Rather, its about a western MNC trying to "bully" the Chinese into adopting their (western) values. This line of thinking; westerners bullying China has been pounded by the CCP for the past 60 years so its very easy to troll that line to great success.

>westerners bullying China has been pounded by the CCP for the past 60 years so its very easy to troll that line to great success.

Actually it was 'trolled' long before the CCP came in to power by revolutionaries, and most likely citizens.

The history of China has been miserable for the past two centuries, culminated defeat in opium wars and wars with Japan has resulted in compensation with land and money. Several unsuccessful civil uprisings has also cost many lives and ruined the economy - many people in that time lived in poverty!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Dynastic_rule

The degree to which people inside China complain about the government seems to more closely relate to how much they trust you than their station in life.

As far as being "anti-west" goes, can you elaborate on what specific western values/beliefs/policies the younger chinese are against?

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