Don’t support laws you are not willing to kill to enforce (2014)
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BLM talking points are not facts and presenting them as such is irresponsible.
Reaching for your gun while you're resisting arrest is ample justification for the police to shoot you.
Where there's mistakes, they should be investigated. If the evidence shows that police acted unlawfully, then they should be charged with crimes. But painting these broad strokes is dishonest and divisive. It's given rise to the false myth that police are hunting down black men en masse.
This myth has consequences. If I believed that police were hunting me and my family down due to the color of my skin, I might take some drastic actions too, and feel justified in them. But it's not true for me and it's not true for black people in America either. The vast majority of police officers who have to use deadly force in the line of duty act lawfully in defense of their lives or the lives of others.
No one argues that police are racist against whites because Asians are much less likely to be killed by cops.
For example, in 2011 and in California, the rate of mortality was 4.9 per 100k. The national average that year for all occupations was 3.5 per 100k.
Often, in the cases that become national controversies, in cases where the specific facts do not present a reasonable fear of imminent danger.
Police taking reasonably necessary action in defense of self or others is not particularly controversial.
Every law ultimately rests on the police arresting you for not complying, at some point. Otherwise, the law is meaningless.
It turns out that people don't like having their freedom taken away and often fight back against the police. It's a very dangerous job.
The legal principle of proportionality states that law enforcement always have to consider whether their actions are reasonable in comparison to the violation of laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)
There is also a general concept related to proportionality that basically states that law enforcement actions must be strictly necessary or required in the given situation. Especially when the means of enforcement includes physical violence.
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/UseOfForc...
Second, it also comes down to a training issue. I would say that the response from law enforcement that Eric Garner and Tamir Rice met was no way appropriate to the threat that they posed to law enforcement or society, perceived or otherwise. I would hope we can at least all agree that these two citizens should be alive today.
The two videos linked below are an interesting and disturbing contrast. The top one is UK police responding to a man with a knife at a Tube station. The second one is American police responding to an unarmed bank robber in Miami.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2015/dec/06/police...
The cigarette tax is interesting because this exemplifies a corporate entity/state which wants to protect its revenue at the expense of a person lower on the ladder trying to address a simple market situation, it's not one that I or you deal in, but this guy obviously did.
By making it illegal, the police must enforce the law. The guy then breaking said law is faced with a hard choice when dealing with the police in that situation, which is that he is going to be at a minimum fined or possibly worse. For a cigarette, which all sane people would say, "seriously?"
Our goal should be to have police enforce laws that we care about, and laws that actually matter. It reduces the chance for potential abuse of the law. Remember that most poor people are forced to work and live in more public areas, where richer people have more private property that shields potentially the same or worse incursions of the law from the police.
I'd suggest that Eric Garner's case very explicitly proves otherwise.
"Strawman", really? Are you not aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner?
> I would not choose to kill someone for driving drunk
You have completely missed the point of OP; it's not the punishment for the crime which results in death, but the enforcement of the law.
You are effectively, though not directly, threatening every law breaker with the possibility of being killed by a police officer.
I really don't think that the society with no rules against "not absolutely major" stuff would be a very good society to live in.
But then you have situations like selling loose cigarettes. Was that the fault of the rule, or was it the fault of the cop? Well, you may say, without the rule, the cop wouldn't have been in that particular interaction. True. So what would he have been doing? Interacting with someone else, with the same heavy-handedness.
And in fact, decriminalizing pot nation-wide might be the big step to help with a lot of this. I'm not sure it would be free from other consequences, though...
Supporting some law could mean some cases interact with those of dubious mental resilience, or with unnecessarily deadly cops, which results in irrational escalation or death. It could also mean that, on the sum of all things, including people dying, society experiences net benefit.
Supporting a law which benefits nuclear energy and rejects fossil fuel or coal energy could mean people dying as well, but it could also mean a better world where fewer people die from energy policy.
Unfortunately, some people stop at the idea that an unjust death occurs, and only focus on that, without recognizing that more people may be already unjustly dying with a status quo policy. To borrow an example, people would rather a man made train barrel down its existing man made path to kill 3 people than to redirect the train to kill 1 person.
Basically, the police culture seems to focus on over-policing useless things like traffic enforcement while under-policing dangerous parts of town with beat cops.
When I used to drive regularly I would often see cars with non-working lights. Most people probably aren't even aware that their light is not working. Anyone who can get the driver's attention and inform them of the problem is performing a service for everyone near roads.
As was said ad infinitum when I was learning to drive - it's a privilege and not a right.
Also seems to assume license testing is standardized with rigorous instruction regarding safety.
Some states don't require anything more than successfully completing a multiple choice test about signals and signs many folks end up ignoring anyway, and a brief on road exam.
People go in and drive safely for the 20 mins their subjected to a road test and sink into bad habits all the time.
I personally saw a wobbly 75 year old man with shakey hands (he updated his signature wearing coke bottle thick glasses) and a cane get his license renewal rubber stamped
Feeling safer already.
Not the broken taillight. It wasn't.
Not the "robbery suspect." All black men match.
Philando Castile was pulled over 52 times because police target black men with hostile situations that could get escalated to searches and small-time drug busts.
The answer is to end the Drug War and to repeal the "junk" infractions that enable police to initiate contact with minorities for no good reason.
This is a favored way of policing because it has a ton of advantages for the police and town:
1. You raise revenue. The amount raised more than offsets whatever costs you incur in enforcement. In some towns, it's the majority of their budget.
2. It allows you to screen for prior infractions. Warrants, unpaid tickets, etc. You can then take them into custody and impound the vehicle. The vehicle is extremely liquid and frequently worth quite a bit of $$$.
3. It is much safer than walking the beat in a dangerous part of town. The driver is frequently restricted within the vehicle and the officer has clear visibility into the vehicle.
4. The officer is frequently stationary in the vehicle with his laptop, internet, etc. This is much more comfortable than walking on the street or even actively patrolling in the vehicle. Why go to them, when they can come to you?
This is the problem in USA, in a nutshell. We have some amorphous mental picture of how law enforcement works, instilled by an unholy mashup of local TV news and cop movies, and we cannot abide any public innovation or experimentation in that.
Of course, in so doing, we tolerate all manner of unpublicized "innovation" on the part of LEOs: asset forfeiture, stingray surveillance, parallel construction, profiling, qualified immunity, "special-needs" exceptions, etc. So we have a ratchet in this nation, in which occasional gains in freedom on the part of particular groups are more than offset by regular losses from everyone else.
If a nonviolent suspect "runs" from law enforcement, then send her a notice of fine, in the mail. It works for the credit card companies...
But I've got pot in my trunk, or something I lifted from the local Walmart, or I'm paranoid, or I'm in a hurry, or whatever. Now what? Do they make me stop, or do they not?
Look, I'm not trying to justify profiling. But the world is not as black and white as you think it is...
Now back in actual everyday reality, can we also agree that 99.8% of the cases in which dudes are stopped and their trunks searched do not constitute violence? I mean, other than on the part of the State...
Tell me some more about what I think!
It's against the Constitution to stop people who fit the description of someone who just committed a major crime? I'd like to see you cite a paragraph of the Constitution that supports your position.
It's against common sense? I'd like to see you support that assertion as well.
> Tell me some more about what I think!
In your posts, you gave evidence that you seemed to think that using force to stop suspects was not warranted. I gave reasons why I thought sometimes it was, and therefore that your view was too simplistic - too black and white. You grudgingly acknowledged my counterexample, but got offended that I claimed your view was too black and white. You seem to think I'm ascribing to you views that you don't actually hold. But I'm not trying to read your mind. I'm just reading your words. If I'm misreading them, clarifying might be a more useful approach...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm
> Are excessive traffic fines and debtors' jails fuelling community tensions in suburban Missouri? Claire Bolderson reports on a network of ninety separate cities in St Louis County, most of which have their own courts and police forces. Critics say that their size makes them financially unviable and allege that some of them boost their incomes by fining their own citizens and locking them up when they can't pay.
It's unsafe to drive around with non-working lights, mostly because it interferes with other drivers' expectations (working brake-lights and working tail-lights, light geometry allows guesstimation of car dimensions), but also because it can impair the driver's own visibility.
But presumably these could be dealt with friendly warnings, and not a cause for fines or arrest. However, once the traffic stop is made, the officer has wide berth on how to respond, making it ultimately very subjective.
I see cars whose bodies are 75% duct-taped garbage bags on a daily basis. I hear cars with nonworking mufflers on a daily basis. Our culture is that if you don't have the cash on hand or the inclination to repair your car after a devastating crash or serious failure (but it still drives), you simply keep driving it.
I'm pretty sure the extent of "inspection" in the handful of locales where it exists is "is it throwing any emissions-related OBD codes?"
[1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3681591/That-taillig...
[2] http://www.kare11.com/news/police-scanner-audio-1/267042738
[1] BOLO - "Be on the lookout"
As for the police not verifying the recording, that's not unusual. Police don't tend to comment on pending investigations unless they need something from the public. In any case, the shooter's attorney has largely confirmed the information in the recording[1]. It could still be a fake, but if it is, it's a good one based on information not publicly available until days later.
[1] http://www.startribune.com/lawyer-castile-pulled-over-becaus...
I don't see a quote from the attorney in support of the claim that the stop was called in.
If the call was already broadcast, I don't see why it couldn't be confirmed. Is this source the only one recording?
The claim that the shooter called in the stop before he made it is unremarkable because that's standard practice. In fact, it'd be more unusual if he hadn't called it in. Doubly so when stopping a suspected armed robber. A big reason why officers call in every stop is so that if the stop goes sideways and they are never heard from again, at least dispatch got the plate so investigators know where to begin.
I'd wager most news operations use Radio Reference these days rather than worry running all that gear and archiving all that audio themselves. Some of the relevant streams were down that night[1], probably explaining why there aren't other copies floating around.
[1] http://forums.radioreference.com/broadcastify-live-audio-lis...
There is really no excuse not to be doing it at this point. Especially when third parties are proven unreliable.
Most of the problems with police/citizen interaction have to do with citizens not behaving in a manner that supports the severe information asymmetries of those encounters.
[1] I don't mean they ARE predators, but that the information processing they use looks like what predators use - a detail out of place will trigger interest in further evaluation.
Non-predators behave this way as well. I think you meant to say that police operate with the logic of animals that aren't inherently afraid of their surroundings, which makes sense. Police shouldn't be afraid to investigate.
But they should have carte Blanche to poke at anything anywhere anytime they please?
Yeah no.
There should be a set of limits which they're trained in. And they should be afraid to investigate outside those limits.
Id rather tie their hands than allow a bunch of GI Joe wannabes do whatever they please.
They don't. We have really, really extensive laws (including the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution) preventing them from doing that. If they illegally search you, the evidence is useless (and often the conviction becomes impossible).
What you're describing is something out of 1984, not the reality of the hundreds of millions of police interactions in the US every year.
There are, of course, animals that are neither but they're fewer in number.
Police are "front-eyed".
It's a very common police tactic to start with a minor infraction then investigate to find any further violations. This isn't wrong, and is actually good police work. But it can be easy to abuse if applied with a racial bias, or some other prejudice. (And which is why independent police oversight is a necessity. Not just for high-profile killings, but also for monitoring how law enforcement operates in the community in small ways).
And the libertarians this time around are serious candidates -- president and VP nominees are both two-term governors. Pretty hard to ignore when the major candidates are so bad.
Gary Johnson is a neo-liberal to the core. To him everything comes down to how much it costs.
He's anti-mandatory vaccinations.
He's all about FairTax which hit the poor harder than the rich. Screw people that don't have rich parents.
He's anti net neutrality and believes incumbents should manage the network as they see fit. Of course he opposes government intervention to keep the internet "independent". Let's rely on network access providers, cause that's working out well.
He's all about the free market and anti government meddling until either argument get in his way. He says government should not subsidize or bailout industry but hey it should support building more coal (pandering to coal nation).
He supports the TPP, which is nothing but a gift to entrenched big business and the erosion of other nations sovereignty.
He's a Constitutional "originalist", which is basically code word for "screw letting people decide how to govern themselves, we're sticking to the flawed work of some long dead white guys."
In short, he's just as vague when it comes to concrete solutions, big on talking points, pro rich, anti poor, but worst of all driven by idealism versus reality.
Typical politician. Nothing new to see there.
I know many will disagree with his positions on some things, or maybe many things. The point is that they are reasonable politicians, and especially when the main candidates are so bad, deserve a fair chance in the media to have their say.
Other western countries have much lower police fatalities, being a police officer in the US is way more dangerous than other western countries.
http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.htm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officer...
http://www.npm.org.au/honour-roll
I could not find a source but it would be nice to see a break down of - killed illegally - killed by accident - injuries - gun - knives - etc
Broken down by country/per capita, I think we would find (my opinion as I couldn't find the stats) that the US is abnormally high to its peers.
Feloniously Killed: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2014/tables/tabl...
Accidentally Killed: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2014/tables/tabl...
Interestingly look at the rate of injury as well especially from fire arms.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2014/tables/tabl...
I'm not saying it's not more dangerous to be a police officer than the average occupation (I think it goes without saying that we expect it to be a dangerous job). But it's important to put these numbers in global terms as well. The assault rate according to those stats was 9%, with a 28.3% injury rate from assaults. To put that in perspective, assuming injury rate remains constant (which doesn't appear to be the trend, it appears to be going down), that means you have about a 39.7% chance of serving 20 years and ever receiving an injury from a criminal. For a normal occupation that would be high, but for the police that doesn't seem especially dangerous. Especially considering that about 80% of those injuries are from "Personal Weapons" (aka, getting punched).
Weather or not its an explanatory factor in a statistical sense, I don't know, but personally I can't see how that justifies some of these incidents.
Why would that not be expected? They are both armed and trained. That statistic alone says nothing about the police being the perpetrators of the violence, only the party ending the violence.
Certainly every individual one is a tragedy, and I wouldn't want it to be me, but overall these are not alarming numbers, taken in context.
What is your point exactly? My point is that being a police officer is not as deadly of a job as they insinuate (note that most police officers die of heart attacks and car accidents).
Actually I just realized I made the same mistake for killings by police (1111 is a _one year_ count for citizens, whereas 505 is a _ten year count_ for police. In reality you had about _21 times_ the odds of being killed by the police in an interaction).
There were 1,950 firearm assaults on the police by a criminal and an injury percentage of 9.4% by firearms in 2014. That gives ~183 injuries [1].
[1] https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2014/tables/tabl...
Police officers will tend to have more encounters per year than the average person, so even if the odds of the office dying in a typical encounter or lower than the odds of the non-officer dying, the officer could have a much higher chance of dying over the course of a year just from having more encounters.
Odds of dying per year would still need a probability of a police encounter to multiply against. i.e. P(K | E) * P(E). For police this would just be P(E) = 1.
As a side note, if you're interested in this type of thing, Radiolab has just started an excellent podcast on supreme court cases called More Perfect [2].
The line between being pulled over for a minor infraction, and making an officer fear for his life is a very blurry one.
Which they do by proxy.
Get a simple ticket and don't pay it or show up for court and it can become a bench warrant in which the cops can go arrest you. Serving warrants is a dangerous event, as in some percentage of the time the served fight back violently.
The only power police have is the power of violence.
There's something weird with the culture of violence in the US.
The problem is not per se the laws... I'd wager that most Americans favor roughly proportional response by law enforcement, and the penalties of laws usually reflect that. The blame belongs in the constitutional powers we give law enforcement to investigate crimes and respond to perceived danger. As long as the police are free to investigate suspicious persons and respond with deadly force if they feel that a person is an imminent danger, it doesn't actually matter what laws we pass.
In a world where offenders will readily comply with the punishment, you can just have purely civil enforcement, no need for a special class of sworn officers to deal with it.
This is the point of the essay: law enforcement gets to use physical, ultimately deadly, force, and this is the case everywhere, even if US cops are significantly more trigger-happy than pretty much all their peers.
If you're never comfortable using violence to enforce the law, there is literally no need for it to be a law. There is no point to employ police officers to check on the size of sodas if they are not allowed to initiate force to prevent people from buying and selling them.
On the contrary, if you are comfortable using violence, you have to own that anf accept that ultimately such violence will be deadly.
Since, after all, that's the root of the problem.
[EDIT:] Are police unions, bar associations, and armaments manufacturers just going to sit out the session in which you get your miraculous "just do the right thing ok cops?" law passed? I can't believe that someone as knowledgeable as yourself really thinks that way...
Demilitarizing the police takes building a coalition for a single, focused, legislative action. Preventing all new, and eliminating all existing, legislation that you aren't willing to have the state kill to enforce requires a lot more.
So, I'd say that demilitarizing the police is a lot easier.
> Every new crime can be fought right in the legislature here and now. Who can demilitarize the police?
Demilitarizing the police can be fought right in the legislature, here and now, too.
EDIT (to respond to yours):
> [EDIT:] Are police unions, bar associations, and armaments manufacturers just going to sit out the session in which you get your miraculous "just do the right thing ok cops?" law passed?
I don't see bar associations particularly likely to oppose demilitarizing police; OTOH, police unions are often opponents of efforts to decriminalize minor offenses that are useful as pretexts (and often are sponsors of new criminalization of this type.) So, is it easier to build a coalition to beat them on one point, or thousands?
That's a popular stereotype, but -- especially in any way relevant to the kind of criminal offenses at issue in this discussion -- its not borne out at all, AFAICT, by the actual history of bar association lobbying.
Basically, a tiny non-zero chance of death still means a finite numbers of lives killed by the policy. And any police encounter has some tiny chance of escalating to lethal force by either side.
But the obvious implication, to me, is "hey, everything has a cost in lives, that shouldn't be a dealbreaker". However, the author uses it in a way that implies that it's some useful heuristic for which laws are good, rather than a trivial point about the ever-present risk of death.
(I expected it to be a point about how, if you want to enforce any law, you have to apply increasing escalation against those who resist it. Refusal to comply -> arrest; resistance of arrest -> force; resistance of force -> death)
Really seems like they are missing the obvious answer:
IF you don't want to die, don't resist police orders. Do your resistance in the courts.
If you have to show up in court with a bad lawyer - or even representing yourself - do that rather than trying to fight the police.
Statistically, there's over a 90% chance you'll never see a court date. Because, see, if you don't sign this plea deal we'll just make shit up to pile into the existing charges. Maybe your day in court will let you dodge that triple life sentence, or maybe you'd rather just cop guilty and take the 90 days.
Selling cigarettes is not on that list and the only reason that cops get away with it, is a culture of fear and egregious defensive overreaction, which treats unarmed black men as threats equivalent or worse than a white guy with a pistol drawn.
After a fair reading of the article the real argument goes something like this:
1) The sheer number of laws means every citizen is in violation on a regular basis. Especially for trivial things like rolling through a stop sign, selling loose cigarettes, changing lanes without a signal, etc.
2) Every violation is an opportunity for a police encounter. A population that has only 10 laws to obey will have lower encounter rate than a population that has 1000.
3) Each police encounter has a non-zero chance of resulting in violence. Be it a citizen resisting and the cops responding with violence. Or in a cop making a fatal mistake, or a cop overreacting to a situation. There is some likelihood of a violent outcome.
4) Improved officer training and tactics alone are a limited way to lower the per-encounter violence rate. Oversight and accountability are difficult to implement due to various institutional and political barriers.
5) A better, safer, long-term solution is to reduce the total number of encounters by reducing the total number of laws a citizen is required to obey. Fewer encounters mean fewer opportunities for violence.
My main objection to this argument is that #5 would be as difficult to implement as #4. Paring down the number of laws will take a lot of political will and capital. Changing the institutions of policing and prosecution will take just as much political will to change. We should probably do both.
And no one is killing to enforce laws against petty theft, no one is killing to enforce laws against almost any infraction.
The use of deadly force comes in effect when you have a portion of the population willing to use violence against cops, which makes cops very nervous that they will 'get the winning lottery ticket' next stop and overusing force back.
In my opinion the discussion should be around the way the police force interacts with people. If some laws get abolished in the process, that's probably good.
And there is no way around that - rules and laws are just words on paper, ultimately you always have to use force in one way or another if someone does not voluntarily honor the words, otherwise they will only be words on paper and nothing more.
There are certainly cases where you can punish someone without any cooperation on their side - like no longer giving them some benefits or freezing a bank account - but those scenarios are really far from covering all possible scenarios and you still have to determine the identity at the very least.
If you want to enforce a law (it's always an option not to enforce a given law, but then you might as well not have it) against an offender that for whatever doesn't want to cooperate with the penalty decided, what do you propose doing?
At this point, you often incur the additional criminal charge of 'resisting arrest', which can be penalized separately, which does not necessarily need to be by arresting you -- and thereby avoiding a race-condition. You could instead, for example, be subject to a court order that turns off utilities to your dwelling until you surrender to police custody, making you less likely to continue resisting. Or you could have your wages garnished, or simply staked out for days, making it difficult to go about your day. There are many creative possibilities.
But I do have a better idea. QUIT RESISTING ARREST. There you go. People in most other countries don't seem to have the problem with that we have in the US.
It's a tangent, but you also have to consider the self-employed survivalist on the ranch. No water to turn off, no employer to compel.
Carter correctly points out that the massive growth of
criminal and regulatory law means that almost anyone can
potentially end up in the same situation as Eric Garner.
So does Carter and author suggest reducing the number of laws? Or should we just take it that law enforcement abusing power causing deaths are inevitable? Libertarians argue that we have far too many laws,
and the Garner case offers evidence that they’re right.
And in the same paragraph: But fewer laws would mean fewer opportunities for
official violence to get out of hand. the scope of government regulation has grown so great
The unfortunately reality is laws are only growing NOT reducing.