Russia’s Duma approved some of the most repressive laws in post-Soviet history | Hacker News Reader

Russia’s Duma approved some of the most repressive laws in post-Soviet history

meduza.io

71 pointswalterbell60 comments

Seems like every country is busy approving some of the most repressive laws in post-Soviet history. How do these laws compare with the legislation in other countries? Or even proposed legislation, that was either averted by civil society or is still being wrangled over.

For instance, Justifying terrorism on social media is also a crime in Germany (§ 282a StGB), although I can't comment on the exact conditions and the maximum penalty is two years, not seven. And data retention was reintroduced (after being abolished for constitutional reasons), but it only covers metadata and the retention length is much shorter (weeks, as opposed to years).

>> For instance, Justifying terrorism on social media is also a crime in Germany

The only difference is in Russia you would be better careful when you "like" posts of opposition on Facebook. Because someone who writes about corruption of the government can "turn into" terrorist any minute. And then all his/her friends and followers will be under attack.

Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations, it doesn't work in Russia also, they had democracy in 90s it ended with organized crime ruling the nation, killing politics, pensions not being payed etc. They have enough of democracy. Putin has 80-90% support in the nation. You know how many people are protesting ? Around ~10k max in Moscow in 146 mil nation. And i am writing that as liberal person that supports democracy. Liberal democracy is not panacea for everything.

> [Russia] had democracy in 90s

Russia had elections in the 1990s. Elections are just one component of democracy [1]. Protecting the rights of the minority from the will of the majority and constraining the rulers within the law (i.e. the rule of law) were not features of Russia's heady days in the go-go 90s.

[1] https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004...

10k? And who are these millions, supporting the man, who states that Putin's party and Putin himself are thieves?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_mayoral_election,_2013

600k smth. Not even a million.

Are you kidding? Even 600k is a very significant portion of the city's population! Given that a lot of people are just passive and will never come to public protest, this is an incredible evidence of support for the opposition to the regime from the masses.

As long as democracy is a rule of majority nobody gives a %uck about those 10k-600k.

Until there are fair elections, with equal access to media for all candidates and equal material resources for all parties, we will never know what majority wants. Right now, state-sponsored polls can provide any result elite wants.

Besides, after you control all the important media for at least last 10 years, it's not a surprise that people in Russia think what they think. They will get robbed and abused again and again and think it's good for them.

Just wondering: so you are one of those bright souls that know where the light is..?

People are not as stupid as you think they are. That's what democracy is about, like it or not.

nop. 27.24% not all citizens, but only Moscow residents were allowed to participate, so probably 40m+

Voting for a mayor is not equal voting against Putin. Your logic is flawed.

> it ended with organized crime ruling the nation

That's still the case, except there's just one dominant family, which to be fair has its benefits for the country. No, liberal democracy isn't a panacea for everything, but at some point the security vs freedom tradeoff fails and further reductions in freedom produce no security benefits, or any benefits at all to society.

Maybe murdering the opposition has the effect of making people a little reluctant to speak out or attend demonstrations.

The 90s were a result of the same corrupt people refusing to let go of the power. The KGB just went in silent mode and took control of the country through economic means and agents in key positions in the media and judicial and LE systems.

Stasi had the same plans as did every other country in the Bloc. Some were fought off (Baltics, Czech), others are worked very well (Bulgaria).

Bulgaria has democracy... Since the communist regime fell in the 90's, the country has been ruled exclusively by the offspring of former communist leaders, in a way that makes the Sicilian mafia look like amateurs. Everything of value in the country (assets, manufacturing, agriculture) has been looted and the money stashed in private accounts abroad. The majority of people who still live there are starving and living in miserable conditions - everyone with half a brain and some saved (or borrowed) money has long left the country (more than 30% of the native population, in my estimates) and is unlikely to ever come back. Those who remain are primarily from the Turkish and Gypsy (aka. "Roma") minorities - people who are consistently bribed at "democratic" elections with (wait for it...) cheap street food. Throw them a burger, they'll vote for whoever you want. As many times as you want :)

But, yea, it's a EU country... in NATO and all that.. modern, democratic.. Long live democracy.

That's all bad, but what would you propose instead of democracy?

Putin.

Like it or not, that's the only answer. A VERY strong, totalitarian leader who fully disregards his own people AND foreign interests, while having at least some interest in improving the economy of the country, no matter what it takes. And, sure, benefiting tremendously in the process, but if you ask me - well deserved.

You can take him, we no longer have need. When can you come? Better bring a truck.

Seriously tho. Did you notice a lot of Russians in Bulgaria recently? Living, buying property, being annoying? Why did you think they left Russia and come to Bulgaria? Couldn't stand the awesomness?

What Putin did all these years: spent oil dollars that suddently surged, increasing wages without caring for productivity. Invited millions of Muslim migrants from neighbouring countries while young/educated Russians were leaving. Demolished the remnants of elections system and separation of branches of governnment. He also lost Ukraine and had the best international strategy of buying allies for cash.

The leader you've just described doesn't exist, since even the most totalitarian leader is still a politician and thus must consider the interests of his power base. In order for Putin to be the leader you want him to be, he has to disregard his rent-seeking siloviki buddies, not to mention feudal lords like Ramzan Kadyrov, which he obviously can't if he wants to remain in power. He is still to a large extent dependent on them. Of course, Putin might be better than the siloviki ruling by themselves, but it's hardly an improvement on a disfunctional liberal democracy.

That's not democracy.

Oh, and what is? Seriously, I've never managed to get ANYONE to give me an example of a working democracy. And please don't mention America - that's like the opposite of democracy.

Democracy is an illusion, at best. It can't possibly exist as a system of government in the real world. And that's a good thing.

>Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations, it doesn't work in Russia also

Sounds kinda racist, when you think about it. Like we're lesser people or something, and can't enjoy basic human rights.

> in 90s

"90s" that you're referring too actually lasted around 7 years, from 1992 to 1999.

Putin is already full 17 years on his throne and there's no longer any point in blaming anybody other than himself in any shortcomings. It was enough time to do whatever he wanted. He wanted to build a kleptocracy and that he did.

> Putin has 80-90% support in the nation.

Putin says so.

> Around ~10k max in Moscow

Putin says so.

> i am writing that as liberal person

Why then are you repeating Putin's lies?

Elections and legislative bodies do not constitute democracy, in and of themselves.

Democracy requires, foremost, a strong civil society, the rule of law, and the protection of individual and minority rights.

> Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations

Democracy doesn't work in a lot of situations; this is not an inherent geographical attribute.

> it doesn't work in Russia also

Well, this has never been observed in Russia, so we'll never know.

> Liberal democracy is not panacea for everything.

Nobody claims this. But you can at least trust your neighbor not to turn you into the police because of due process. I'm that's not necessary in Russia because the government of course never commits human rights violations or makes mistakes.

Putin signed these laws today:

https://meduza.io/en/news/2016/07/07/vladimir-putin-signs-co...

This only makes me happier Apple made a stand against backdooring. These laws are precisely the fears they expressed—that foreign countries would demand similar things that the FBI did and that Apple would have very little room to avoid bowing to the same demands.

This is how Russia treats their own people. Why some individuals thought Russia was not involved in the current conflict in Ukraine is beyond me. All the evidence aside, their own people are no better off. That speaks volumes to me.

Have you read article at all? Why would you call terrorists "own people"?

Not all of these are purely aimed at terrorists. A lot of this will overflow onto the general public.

Russia have had SORM, SORM-2, SORM-3 for ages. New law force decryption of P2P communications to restore status quo.

What about potential imprisonment for a retweet or a repost in a social network? You're trying to make this law sound okay and nothing new, but it's not. It's something from the era of Stalin and NKVD.

Too bad that worse things are going to happen next, but we'll know of them only decades later, since now everyone is effectively silenced by fear.

Terrorists are people too and do not have to be 'foreign'.

Because any person who disagrees with official stance on anything can be conveniently labeled as a terrorist. It's been done million times.

Not so long ago we had "enemy of the people" term in Russia that was applied so broadly that significant portion of population was affected.

In US terrorist watch list grows out of proportion and no one knows who's in it and why.

> in Russia

In Soviet Union. That's kind of a different entity (for me at least).

Is anyone surprised Putin is eager for this? This is a man who was a junior officer in the KGB. Young enough to be bought into the propaganda of the USSR, smart enough to land a job at the KGB, and yet not senior enough to see through the high level societal corruption and demystify much of the inner workings of the upper eschelon. It's no surprise that he wants to "Make Russia Great Again" after living through the "humiliation" of the USSR's demise. That's precisely why he is dangerous even by the old guard's standards: Lessons that should have been learned were not.

Recently noticed that prior to the end of the Cold War, the global annual count of terrorist attacks [1] were growing rapidly, but then, after the USSR fell, they rapidly declined.

Anyone seen any alias of this and if there was any link between the fall in terrorist attacks globally and the fall of the USSR?

[1] Global Terrorism Database: https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/

You mean the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan where the US supplied weapons to the Mujahideen insurrection/terrorists (including a Mijahideen member named Osama Bin Laden)? USSR retreat meant no more targets for the insurrection/terrorists. This was towards the end of the USSR's life. Before then, in the 60s Afghanistan was a pretty modern country by western standards. So there wasn't violence and discontent like there was after that entire event.

What has this story to do with parent's comment? Also you don't seem to be telling the story fully. The USSR invaded Afghanistan which posed a great threat to the global supply chain of oil which is a threat to the US national security. That's why the US was forced to back the Mujahideens.

Yeah, right. 9/11, ISIS, crushed states and chaos in the Middle East... They all happened before the fall, obviously.

> Anyone seen any alias of this and if there was any link between the fall in terrorist attacks globally and the fall of the USSR?

It wasn't exactly unknown at the time that much terrorism prior to the fall of the Cold War was funded (sometimes indirectly) by the superpowers as part of their geopolitical rivalry. The fall of the USSR resulted in a drop in that activity (on both sides.)

It's interesting that revoking citizenship was a step too far for Russia. Canada passed a similar law last year: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/what-dual-citizens-need-to-know...

The Canadian version is for dual citizens only. They're not leaving single citizenship Canadians stateless, like the proposed version of the Russian law does.

Russia is getting close to USA PRISM[1] program.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

They're far beyond it for a few years now. Before this law there was another (in 2014 if I'm not mistaken) that stipulated that if you do anything with Russian data, you have to 1) store that data physically inside Russia, and 2) you have to give full access to that data to any law enforcement organization upon their request (no warrants, no reason, no appealing, etc.) If you don't, you pay a hefty fine and/or they just shut you down. Also if you have a website with over 3000 daily readers, you must use your real name when publishing anything and must register with a government agency.

I don't know what to make of this; half of these laws are on the books in the US, and the other half are on the books elsewhere in the West.

Waiting for Snowden to condemn this.

He already did, a while ago: https://boingboing.net/2016/06/27/snowden-publicly-condemns-...

Honestly did not expect this. Though at this point in time he's clearly outlived his usefulness as a Putin's PR toy, so maybe he can tweet whatever he wants now.

He did:

"#Putin has signed a repressive new law that violates not only human rights, but common sense. Dark day for #Russia."

https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/751019610258964480

"Signing the #BigBrother law must be condemned. Beyond political and constitution consequences, it is also a $33b+ tax on Russia's internet."

https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/751020926456721408

"People ask if I fear retaliation for my criticism. I do. But it did not stop me from criticizing the @WhiteHouse, and will not stop me here."

https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/751023099945123840

Escalation.

As if they didn't have enough laws against protesting...

Yarovaya's legislation introduces a new criminal-code article that outlaws “inducing, recruiting, or otherwise involving” others in the organization of mass unrest. The maximum penalty for breaking this law is ten years, and the minimum prison sentence is five years.

Parent post is a pretty good example of propaganda that is being disseminated on full volume all over Russia for last 5 years. They got really good at shilling all over the internet with these kind of messages.

Do you have any argument? I can say exactly the same about this topic. meduza.io is owned by old angry woman that were kicked from lenta.ru for being too pro-west.

> meduza.io

Why on earth do you think that bringing unrelated things in the discussion is a workable discussion strategy? Downvote.

And we all know what lenta.ru looks like now, after she and others left, it's a pro-Putin propaganda outlet now.

Democracy in Russia apparently didn't work, as in failed to preserve itself.

You can think of democracy as of a good thing or a bad thing, but either way it's not a thing that universally wins, once introduced.

We should notice that democracy had failed to preserve itself in the past in many European countries, notably Italy (1920s), Germany (1930s), Greece (1970s), to say nothing of Latin America. Most of the time it was later restored, one way or another.

You should read Casino Moscow. It's an informal history of one reporter's experience in Russia in the 90s. Definitely not biased towards the present regime in Russia; it's written by Zbigniew Brzezinski's nephew: the Brzezinski family is quite anti-Russia due to their Polish nobility heritage. Yet, the book gives a pretty good understanding of why the Russians like Putin and the present system: the 90s were really bad. Like, Mad Max bad, across a huge country of 150 million.

Accusing/insinuating that someone else is astroturfing or shilling is not allowed on Hacker News without evidence. Someone's merely holding a different view than you do does not count as evidence. Please don't do this again.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12050135 and marked it off-topic.

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