Show HN: AutoMicroFarm Is Ready for Shipping
blog.automicrofarm.com
blog.automicrofarm.com
1) I understand buying off the shelf parts for your prototype. But spending hundreds of dollars to be shipped parts I could have bought myself is just adding more middle-men into the supply chain. At this point, just sell the parts list and plans for $20. And when you have built parts with ease of assembly in mind, so this is 5x easier than DIY with parts from home depot... THEN sell the kit.
2) You need to share data of how much water is needed on an ongoing basis, in different climates. People in Arizona with limited water supplies might not have the same resources to put in, for example.
3) You need to talk specifically about what plants work well, what the yields are,in different climates and growing zones, and recommend planting strategies for different locations.
That will lead to a huge support headache, I can really see the case made to send a complete set so that it will be reasonably easy to help people with troubleshooting.
Substitutions may be no-ops or they might change the whole system in subtle and hard to predict ways.
1. In talking to other aquaponics businesses, I've heard that people are not very excited about paying for a manual/plans. If you're serious about this, let me know and I can email you a payment link :)
2. Aquaponics in general only uses ~10% of the water a normal garden, with the only water losses being evaporation and plant transpiration (and what water is incorporated into the plants themselves).
3. This is a good point. The plants that normally grow well in your garden will grow well in aquaponics, with a few extreme exceptions. For example, you would not want to grow blueberries, since they prefer a low pH.
A bit of feedback: can I suggest including a bit of information about the project and aquaponics in general? It took me a while to figure out what this is all about. Something like "Grow your own food with minimal hassle" would help a lot.
EDIT: your answer below nicely sums it up, you might want to put it on the homepage: "Here are just a few advantages over a traditional garden:..."
Edit: thanks again for the tip, I'll add that to the homepage.
Landing page looks much better, though I would suggest replacing the top image with the photo of the system (because it takes quite a lot of scrolling until you see the solution). Also, I miss info where you ship to - EU too?
Ok, sorry, this reply looks like I am dissecting your web page... professional deformation I guess. I don't mean any harm. ;)
Congrats on your achievement and good luck with the project!
I thought about replacing the top photo with this one: http://65.media.tumblr.com/4275c7edda5220da60f629d6f7ee5824/... , but it's not immediately clear to people what they're looking at. Maybe I'll just move up the pics on the page?
I am just focusing on the US for now.
Thanks for your suggestions!
Looks like you're using AWS for your cert. See step 3 on http://docs.aws.amazon.com/acm/latest/userguide/gs-acm-reque...
You need a cert with a Subject Alternative Name for www (or *, which is still free with aws).
I'd also be concerned about water temperatures of a shallow pool during the summer. Water's a great heatsink, but that can be a problem when the ambient air temperature is 118F, and the intense UV out here will likely break down the pools quickly. Most anything made out of plastics is completely trashed after a year of exposure out here. PEX in particular isn't rated for continuous UV exposure, and would likely disintegrate rather aggressively out here.
I love the idea, though. Turnkey aquaponics is a really exciting prospect, especially out here where we don't have particularly rich soil. I'd love to be able to run something like this in my backyard, if I could work out the location-relevant logistics.
Also, it would be a good idea to cover up the plastic, perhaps even more than my enclosure does, to ensure it doesn't degrade as quickly.
I'll help customers make these and other design considerations as part of AutoMicroFarm support.
Not a serious aquarist here, but I did a lot of research before getting my little 10 gallon tank at home set up and everything I've read says the oxygen introduced by air bubbles in the water doesn't really dilute in the water well (most of it just comes up the bubble and out into the open air). In theory, as long as there is a big enough hole for a modest amount of air to be exchanged with the surrounding environment you shouldn't need any extra equipment, as the surface of the water should continue to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide just fine as long as there is enough oxygen present.
A better idea, I feel, is to just keep a layer of air between the water surface and the cover. The key issue is that oxygen has trouble crossing the air/water boundary, so you want that to be as big as possible. Meanwhile, if you keep the air holes in the cover small enough, most of the humid air will be trapped inside, and you will minimize losses from evaporation.
Wish we had raccoons and squirrels!
They look cute but would tear you to shreds. And you are absolutely right, they sound like demons. When I was younger they really freaked me out till my parents told me that was what the noise was.
Unrelated to aquaponics, what do you find the effort/yield is on that?
I've always found with anything larger than a small garden is I'm basically buying a job that pays less than $10/hr. So I've never really felt the urge to go as big as 3 acres since I'd feel that was more than a hobby.
> 1) I understand buying off the shelf parts for your prototype. But spending hundreds of dollars to be shipped parts I could have bought myself is just adding more middle-men into the supply chain. At this point, just sell the parts list and plans for $20. And when you have built parts with ease of assembly in mind, so this is 5x easier than DIY with parts from home depot... THEN sell the kit.
I've have to agree with this as far as routes go. DIY home assembled aquaponics is a pretty common topic that has plenty written 'bout it. It just isn't worth buying a kit without both of:
A) Detailed input/outputs & cost/production for multiple geographic areas so the TCO and lifetime product is basically known. (i.e. Substantial risk reduction greater than the cost of the middle man. The only margin on DIY is the experimentation phase.)
B) An actual kit that is substantially cheaper and/or easier than Home Depot and DIY. In other words, in addition to the reduction of risk due to better info, it also needs to be cheaper in at least one dimension than DIY.
We do produce a lot of our own food, but give up much of our free time to do it. On the other hand, we are not dependent on the standard grocery store supply chain in this country, and while that is worthless right now, there are potential future scenarios where that is priceless. But mostly, we do this as a hobby and so that our kids know how to produce food, whether or not they choose to actually do so when they grow up.
I find its a pretty fair comparison.
But in all seriousness, yeah, I get that. I keep emergency supplies (90 days/person of backpacking food + water + filters). I also cycle the emergency supplies faster than they expire due to my interests (Food, hiking, computers, books are the sum total of my hobbies) so I find its a good balance point for me since I don't really expect a supply chain disruption would last substantially longer than 90 days.
Your (2) and (3) points seem solid!
I'll do you one better: you can download the parts list and manual for free, since I just open-sourced the AutoMicroFarm design. I am also offering optional support. See more on the AutoMicroFarm site: https://automicrofarm.com/
* No dedicated biofilter. Nitrification bacteria will form and live on the sand. Tight coupling between fsh tank and grow beds. No way to decouple when one or the other has to be maintained.
* Fine mesh preventing the sand to get into the fish tank will clogg with detritus.
* Grow beds will clogg with detritus after approximately one season.
* No sump tank. Water level in the fish tank will vary a lot. Fish don't like that. Stocking density will have to be low to aleviate this.
* Too much sun on the fish tank. Most fish species don't like this and algae will form rapidly.
Please do not _sell_ aquaponic designs like this one.
I'm doing aquaponics since 2012 and I'm currently working in aquaponic research for a university.
What's a better inexpensive substrate? I've been finding Diatomaceous Earth (sold as kitty litter or oil absorbent) to be great for starting seedlings, but it's more expensive than desirable for filling a large volume.
Detailed thread here: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=22329
Used in Dutch greenhouses for the last 20 years or so.
But it is not compostable and recyclable.
For a classical ebb and flow grow bed, the rock wool fibers are too fine grained.
It's not composted, but luckily these things can be recycled into other, more useful products. You basically can't sell compost over here as there is too much compost already. We're already exporting compost to the UK for very low prices.
Cat litter stuff or Seramis is to finde grained for the grow beds.
* In general, course sand is a great substrate for plants. Both research and my own experience show no problems with aeration or anaerobic zones forming.
* The sand is the biofilter. This does form a tight coupling of the system, but does not prevent regular maintenance. For intensive maintenance, you would need to take the fish out of the fish tanks anyway.
* No clogging has occurred so far because of the mesh.
* What length of time is one season? What will happen after one season that won't happen after X days/weeks/months?
* The water begins draining from the veggie beds seconds after the flooding cycle starts, so the water level in the fish tank only varies by ~10-15%.
* How rapidly will the algae form? Two months later, I don't really see algae forming in the fish tank. There is algae growing in the furrows, but that's a good thing, since algae forms a natural nutrient battery. In any case, the fish tank placement is not optimal in my prototype, and can be improved in subsequent installations.
Sand might be a good substrate for hydroponics, but with aquaponics, especially when you are not removing the solids prior to flooding the beds, I doubt you will run the system at optimal performance.
Regarding this and the clogging topic I'd like to know at what stocking density you have been running your systems. Our experience so far is that systems are easier to run stable with low stocking density and low feed intensity. This is a valid approach for home systems, but results in lower yields.
When you start raising stocking density and feed intensity, the nutrient concentration becomes more attractive for the plants. But then solid removal becomes quite important. I am pretty sure if you simply pipe the aquaculture water into sand beds without prior processing, solids will accumulate in the grow beds.
You're saying that you did not have any problems regarding aeration. Did you measure DO and nitrites? How does pH behave in your system? Does it drop, rise or stay constant?
"What will happen after one season that won't happen after X days/weeks/months?"
Experience from other researchers with ebb and flow show that even with gravel and LECA sludge builds up in the grow beds and that starting from the second season this can become a problem. Then the grow bed has to be dug out and cleaned from sludge.
"How rapidly will the algae form?"
We recently built a system (on customer request) that has a lot of light on the fish tank. Algae built up after two weeks. Massively. Again, low algea formation in your systems might be due to low stocking density. If the plants have a chance to consume the nutrients and therefore keep the nutrient concentrations low enough to prohibit algae growth, then it might appear ok. But then you are starving the plants, reducing yield.
I've only been running the system a couple months, and haven't seen any problems. Of course any system will need maintenance, but in this case, it's on the order of once every couple years. Here's the relevant link: http://iavs.info/commercial/sand-is-amazing-but-its-not-magi...
I don't have a DO sensor, but I do measure ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites. There were the predictable spikes in ammonia, then nitrites, then a smaller spike in nitrates that you get in a typical aquaponics startup cycle. My pH started out high (~8), and is slowly dropping. It's around 7 now.
Like I said, I know my tank placement with respect to the sun is not optimal. I think the reason I haven't seen algae growth in the tank is because the water is not clear because of the sand fines. The water should clear up once the biofilm/algae gets more established in the furrows; maybe I'll see some algae growth in the tank at that point.
Ideally I would like to have something like this for indoors. Are there any plans to offer a non-backyard version at some point in the future?
There are a lot of indoor options available, but they are pretty small in size, and might produce a salad a week at the most. That's really not AutoMicroFarm's vision.
If you are thinking something that's larger in size, that's a possibility in the future. AutoMicroFarm would have to solve the issue of the weight (the water and sand in the current system are about 1.5 tons). Also, the cost of the LED lighting would have to come down before it is affordable.
With Colorado and Washington state (and I believe Alaska) now allowing homeowners to legally grow cannabis, I think a smaller version of this product for indoor use would have a market. It doesn't have to produce a large yield, and people would really like the aesthetic aspect of a closed cycle with fish involved.
Edit: http://www.pompieripizza.com/Pompieri_Pizza/Fish_Tanks.html
Also, may have missed it, but do you plant the seeds right into the sand or sprout them first somewhere else? (I know basically nothing about gardening, sorry)
Great idea, and very tempting when I get into a new house.
The easiest way to get started is by planting the seeds into the sand, just push them in with your finger. I did plant sprouts in about half of each veggie bed, but I had to wash dirt off their roots, which really put them into shock.
The climate in our house varies so much that we need a heater in the winter and a cooler in the summer to keep it habitable. An additional grow room for plants would require the same and the cost would seem to outweigh the benefits, although I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
Your project is very cool, I think you're doing an amazing job. Keep it up!
The fastest-growing fish used for aquaponics is tilapia, which can reach maturity in six months. But, they require for the water temperature to stay above 60F (15C), and really prefer water above 85F (30C). Other fish take 9 or more months to mature.
Thanks!
What numbers are you basing this on? That is, do you have an estimated yield in lbs. for what one system can produce?
If this system has similar levels of productivity, it would produce 360 lbs annually, so two systems get you 2 lbs of food daily.
A sound stocking density for tilapia would be around 50-60 kg/m3. If you keep temperatures high (28-30°C) you can have two harvests in one year. Tilapia has approximately 40% filet, so you can produce roundabout 50kg of edible fish fillet in one cubic meter fish tank.
With such a fish tank you can approximately produce nutrients for ten square meters of grow beds. A realistic estimate for the yield would be 10kg of produce per square meter per year, maybe a little higher if you take good care of the system. So that would give you 100-150 kg of produce per year with a 16sqm green house, a one cubic meter fish tank and ten sqm grow beds.
The recommended consumption of produce is 100-150 kg per year. So your system could cover your produce consumption for one person.
You still need carbohydrates (grains) and oil (rape seeds and sun flower and such) and protein. The fish will not cover your protein demand.
You'll also have to keep in mind that depending on how you run the system you'll have a lot of fish twice a year. Staggered production is not possible in one smallish fish tank.
Can you explain what makes it better than planting a traditional garden? I came away from the page with the impression that it is better, but I'm not entirely sure what makes it so.
* You get fish
* Better yield, due to items mentioned below
* The optimal watering cycle, followed by a drain cycle, means the plants get the air, water, and nutrients they need multiple times a day.
* The water being reused means you need only 10% of it
* Going organic is really easy: just feed the fish organic fish feed
* No soil diseases
* Virtually no weeds (I’ve picked ~3 weeds over the course of the 1.5 years I ran my initial proof-of-concept prototype)
* Minimal maintenance: only need to plant, harvest, prune, and feed the fish
Have you gone through a winter in this area with the unit in a greenhouse? Any reports on how that worked out?
I have an HOA, as well. In our bylaws, we're allowed a garden of 50 square feet without explicit permission, so I didn't apply for an arch. request. But I'd be happy to help any customers apply.
My first prototype was in a greenhouse in Cary. I was able to continue growing through the winter, but everything (understandably) grew slower. See my previous blog posts for more detail: http://blog.automicrofarm.com/page/3
Incidentally, the first comment I received was about "farmed fish."
1. Are you in California? If so, can you comment on how easy/hard it is to get Tilapia for a setup like this? I know someone living near Campbell who had trouble legally getting any of the Tilapia species that are suitable for aquaculture. The California department of Fish and Wildlife apparently considers most or all Tilapia to be invasive species. (Oddly enough, I see T. buttikoferi in pet stores every now and then, but they're too expensive to eat.)
2. Is using PVC really that bad? I've been in the aquarium hobby for over half my life now, and I can't remember ever seeing a single DIY aquarium plumbing project that didn't use PVC. PVC seems particularly ubiquitous for elbows and fittings--how hard/expensive is it to get PEX fittings at retail?
2. I haven't been able to find a lot of hard facts about PVC, other than the fact that it supposedly bad for fish you want to eat eventually. In any case, PEX piping and fittings are readily available online and in Home Depot and Lowes stores.
1) What kind of fish are recommended/suitable?
2) Where do you get the fish? I assume most pet stores don't sell fish to raise for food.
3) What are the fish food options? Again, I assume pet stores don't carry the required feed.
Edit: A few more fish related questions: Do you have to stick to one type of fish at a time? How many fish can your kit support at one time? I'm sure that's species dependent, so perhaps some examples?
2. You would get the fish at a fish hatchery, there should be one near you. This is something I find out for my customers. You can also buy fish online, but the overnight shipping makes it a bit expensive.
3. You can buy fish food online, or at a hatchery, or e.g. Tractor Supply.
4. The thing about different fish species (or even same species but substantially different sizes) is that if a fish fits inside a bigger fish's mouth, that bigger fish will try to eat it, unless the smaller fish has somewhere to hide, like aquatic vegetation. This is something I will be experimenting with more.
- What about pests? Will the fish control mosquito-larvae in the pool? ... and any other bugs that fall in? (Think southeastern US or other places where mosquitos can be a problem.)
- What about scavengers? Do the fish bed to be protected from raccoons out suburban/feral cats?
- Can you sell sub-kits? For example, I could use your source of kiddie pools and fish, but don't need to buy pex from you when there's a hardware store two miles away...
- What about erosion during times of hard precipitation? (Again, most places in the US do get some serious weather multiple times during the growing season.) Seeing my mature plants wash away would be rather frustrating.
I dig the idea, from one garden hacker to another, I just have a lot of questions ... and as I said: I'm not interested in a full kit, but a sub-kit with research would be really useful.
- In my experience, the fish do a very good job of eating any mosquito larvae and other insects that happen to fall into the pool.
- Depending on how you would want to set up the AutoMicroFarm, there would be plenty of hiding places for the fish. In my setup, I only see the fish come out of hiding when I feed them. But, if this is still a concern, you could add a simple net to deter predators.
- I thought about selling just certain parts, but that adds too much complexity. If you're serious about wanting just certain parts, email me and I'll help you out.
- We've had several hard rains and high winds, and I haven't seen any significant erosion... maybe a few grains of sand that got washed out, but that's it. The plant roots are really good about holding on to the sand. :)
The standard advice for preventing fish loss to raccoons without using netting is: the water must be at least three feet deep (any less than that, and the raccoons will hang from the edge by their hind legs and grab sleeping fish off the bottom) and you MUST NOT train your fish to surface near the edge of the pond (fish have trouble distinguishing the sound of human footsteps from the sound of raccoon footsteps). Any food should be thrown into the pond at least three feet away from the pond edge.
Naturally, that advice isn't very helpful for a pond six feet or less in diameter.
A few of the YouTubers I like have built systems like this. One of the better systems was from MrTeslonian [0].
Hope you get people to buy this!
I'm sure you could get the system cheaper if you found the parts for sale, or already have them. You could also build it faster if you're really handy, have the experience, and don't make any mistakes.
This year I've been experimenting with these DIY self-watering grow containers:
http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/pdfs/EarthTainer-Construct...
Very little maintenance after the initial assembly and planting, and I've had pretty great results so far.
I've heard about aquaponics before, but never dug into it. I'd be interested in hearing about its advantages over a (presumably less involved) traditional container setup like mine.
IBCs and blue plastic drums are generally the "go to' solution [2] as they're made from HDPE, although some are made from plastics that are not considered food safe as they use mould release agents during the manufacturing process which are toxic (no reference for this at the moment, sorry).
Just be aware that generally you need A LOT more grow bed area than you would think to be able to efficiently use the fish tank volume. You can pack a lot of happy fish into a given volume of water.
Also, the general consensus is to use course gravel (20mm) rather than sand, as sand can quickly become blocked with organic material.
[1] http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/
[2] http://ibcofaquaponics.com/
[EDIT] Also, you'll want to keep the sunlight off the fish tank, because once the nitrogen level starts to rise [3], the algae will go nuts in there. I learned this the hard way.
[3] http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/information/the-nitrogen-c...
In fact, the sand media was the original aquaponics design.
References:
http://iavs.info/ http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/topic/9039-integrated-aqu...
I'd love to hear how it's going after 12 months, because sand is certainly easier to work with than course gravel, which can be difficult to plant seedlings into, based on my own experience.
The colour/look would completely put me off buying.
In rainy weather, is losing nutrients to overflow a problem?
Any thoughts to using a 12VDC pump, powered by a solar panel and small battery? (In some places it is illegal to have an extension cord outdoors for months on end.)
Would it be easier/cheaper to ship a version that didn't include the kiddie pools or sand, with the expectation that someone could source those bulky items themselves?
Unless you have a ton of rain, I don't see losing the nutrients as a problem.
That is something I looked into. For $150-$200, you can buy a kit containing the DC pump, a battery, a solar panel, and a timer.
That is something I considered, but I thought it would be simpler to start off with just one offering.
It would be way cool to collab and create an AutoMicroFarmBot.
What features of the AMF are you planning for the next iteration/2.0?
I would really like to solve the hassle of how heavy and inconvenient sand is, perhaps by replacing it with e.g. mushroom media: http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/142436464771/mushroom-med.... But, first things first :)
1) I've heard that you don't really save money on the fish side after you take into account feed and labor. Would you characterize that as true?
2) What are we talking about in terms of maintenance time/costs?
3) How high is the risk of mold or some disease getting in your system, considering your fairly inexperienced target user base?
2. Maintenance time is minimal: I spent 15 minutes a day on my initial prototype, and that was mostly to feed the fish and gather the harvest, once it got going. Maintenance costs are really minimal: fish feed and seeds come out to maybe $20-30 annually.
3. I've never had a problem with mold, since the water always drains (after flooding). There is always the chance that you'll get some kind of pest or disease on your fish/plants, I've had those pests but companion planting can minimize that risk (something I'll help my customers with).
Edit: I don't have an exact answer for you, but assuming you can get the system set up for less than $350 (either yourself, or by hiring an installer), that statement is true.
Also, the maintenance time is similar to what you would spend going to the store to buy the plants/fish.