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Comment by snitko | Hacker News Reader

It's not the problem of lyrics vs words in the first place. It's a problem of lack of musical education. Give a person a guitar or a piano and within a year she starts paying attention to the composition and performing skills. And her tastes may change dramatically too. So in a sense, I consider "listening to words" not as an alternative point of view, but rather a lack of musical training. Sure, words may simply be bad, but they alone usually cannot make song good or bad, while music composition and performing definitely have this power.

Also, please do not think of Americans that way. People in general tend to ignore music because they don't have a proper training. Same here in Russia. Same would even be in Japan. I would even rank Americans and Europeans higher, because they're naturally exposed to different quality music a lot more, than any other culture.

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I agree with your first point, the author's claim that it is an instrumental vs. lyrics problem is not accurate. There are easy counter examples, such as the popularity of instrumental dance music, which often features very little in the way of lyrics and the vapid nature of most pop songs, as well as the ability of many listeners to appreciate music performed in a language other than their own.

The problem with a lot of jazz, what I would call "bad" jazz, is that it is formless noodling. It is in areas like jazz solos, jam rock bands, rock guitar solos, etc. that one hears the admirer comment on the difficultly level of the performance versus the coherent melodies and hooks of popular music, and even many popular classical works.

The popular jazz standards have melodic hooks that cause people to like and remember them. Beyond that surface, a vast majority of jazz musicians are more focused on the intricacies of group performance than composition. Sure more musical education, or better brains, would enable people to develop their memories to be able to recall and hum along with longer and more complex note sequences, but you still need to compose them- and repeat them. (Recall the Mark E Smith formula for pop music "Repetition. Repetition. Repetition.")

Very good point. I think we can both agree that a great composition, both smart and understandable for general public, may be quite simple to perform. On the other hand, sometimes poor composition may be somehow hidden under the layer of the great performer's skills. Not only a jazz problem, btw. As you noticed correctly, it is also quite common for rock bands and, I believe, classical music is affected as well.

The balance is the key. Let me once again mention Sting here. I know I may be quite obsessive with this guy, but he really seems to be the one who found this balance. Always sort of bugged me )

I've been playing gigs as a Irish Trad musician for 20 years. There are an astonishing number of Americans who can't clap on the beat. There are also lots of Americans who can clap somewhere near the beat, but then are still without awareness of how small variations in timing and emphasis can change the feel or swing of the beat.

There are a disturbingly large number of people who -- by their own account -- can't distinguish or process melodic information. I cringe when I think of the 100's of teenagers I've seen purposefully blowing away the high frequency sensitivity it takes to appreciate all the subtle timbres of acoustic instruments.

It's not all Americans. When I go to certain music festivals or even certain regions of the country, I'm surrounded by people who can perceive these things and who understand. I find that energizing. On the flip side, I am often saddened by my different awareness in other places. It's like living in a land of the maimed. It's like being the only sighted person on the planet, with no one to talk to about the beauty of the sunset, the spectacle of the night sky in the countryside, or my favourite paintings.

There's a peculiar book out there by Oliver Sacks called "Musicophilia". He describes in it various cases of musical deafness including tone deafness and rhythm deafness. In reality true cases are quite rare, so I believe most people can develop their "ears" to be able to appreciate music the way you can. I think the mission of every musician whose audience includes large number of people without a proper musical training, is not just to make them love you, but also get them interested to explore music further.

I remember how Sting did that for me. I liked his image as a person and after visiting his performance I started listening to all of his records and playing bass guitar and drums (aside from playing classical guitar). Then I noticed how he really switches to different styles at different times of his career and how his songs sound noticeably different. That led me to exploring jazz and classical music further. And though I quit practicing music for now, I really believe that it was Sting's biggest impact on me that helped me to start appreciate music and developed my tastes.

Why do you consider this both astonishing and disturbing?

I don't find this surprising, nor do I see the problem.

Funny you should say that. Those who I find astonishing and disturbing in this way seldom see the problem.

Sorry, I'm not clear what you mean. What's the problem?

I'm not so sure it's all about education. I've always thought it had a lot to do with "listening talent", that thing which people refer to when they say "He's got a good ear."

Of course, this is just my own theory based on my own, personal (and therefore anecdotal) experience. For example, to enjoy a song, I first need to like its music. If the lyrics are in a language I understand, then I need to like them too, but I'm more forgiving in that aspect. I've always thought that this is because I have a rather decent ear. Even though my voice often lacks the capacity to reproduce the music correctly, I can distinguish sounds well enough that I can reproduce at least the main melody on a keyboard.

On the other hand, I've noticed that most people who have less-than-decent "ear" tend to focus more on lyrics than on music. My theory is that if you can't distinguish well enough one melody from another, your won't be able to enjoy songs based on their music -- it's sort of like expecting a blind person to admire a painting.

I think the weakest link in my theory is the fact that I'm basing it on my "anecdata": among all the people I know, those with "not-so-good ear" are more frequent than those with "decent ear". It would be interesting to see what other people's experiences when it comes to that.

I don’t like that you’re drawing a line between talent and education.

I would probably arrogantly classify myself as someone with a “good ear” but because of my experiences with different music and musicians. I often say people think too much when they listen to music when they need to just take it in. But if I didn’t have the same exposure to the music world, I know I wouldn’t be able to do that.

I’m sure the same thing applies to anything you can call art.

Nothing says the ear can't be trained. But there's always innate capacity you start with. Your talent (or ability, if your wish) depends on both. That's why I said "I'm not so sure it's all about education", the key word being "all".

Yes but I also think that in some cultures people sing more and informally. ot just education but also general attitudes towards singing.

For me growing up the only time I would sing would be in church - the essence of drudgery.

Working and traveling in Asia - I was exposed to people singing pubicaly a lot more. In Korea it seemed pretty common in parties or general gatherings for people just to sing. And NorReBangs (karaoke) as a common destination.

This was so foreign to me as an American. It was hard for me - fun but awkward.

Traveling in Mongolia, I stopped in gers and people would stand around and sing and ask me to sing.

This doesnt make people from these countries automatially better musicians - but I think in my particular upbringing it was really uncommon for people to casually sing. 'If you were not good at it you shouldnt do it' - was the fallacy that I internalized.

I remember my wife, when we were dating, and I were walking through a bohemian area of Seoul full of street musicians, etc and she spontaneously got up in a little outdoor ampitheatre and sang a song she liked. I thought this was great but was so outside my reference...

Japan - despite its proximity to Korea - is a pretty different culture in many ways but I felt the writer was also talking about a comfort or naturalness with music which was not the result of education but culture.

Consider the early-tryouts section of American Idol. Americans experience so much Schadenfreude at watching the unskilled singers because it's considered terrible to sing if you don't know how. We're commonly too scared to try karaoke without some liquid courage.

Sad, really - we end up terrified of making music.

I didn't start listening to lyrics until I was in my mid twenties and I have no musical talent or education. When I heard The Beatles Imagine was banned in some places, I thought, "Why? It's just a song." And then years later I actually listened to it and understood.

One of my girlfriends told me, "I've started listening to jazz, I really like it!" So for her birthday, I got her "Kind of Blue" and she hated it. Shocked, I asked her to play some of the jazz she liked and it was, none other than, wait for it! Kenny G. ... I know huh...

"Imagine" is a song by John Lennon, during his solo career, not a Beatles song.

blush I wasn't even born when it came out, that's my excuse, but it resonated with me when I finally "got" it.

http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm

For what it's worth, research has shown that people who speak languages with tonal differences (like Chinese, Vietnamese etc) tend to be far more likely to develop perfect pitch.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/18/china.highereduc...

Not sure if that contributes to musical education, but my guess is that perfect pitch should have something to do with it.

Thanks for bringing this issue up. I read about this research, yes. I've also read that basically it's not the language itself, but the exposure to any sort of musical training (including learning a language with tonal differences) that affects the development of perfect pitch in early years (source: http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Research-Education-Young-Chil...). Thus, I should correct myself on the statement that different cultures are just about the same in their ability to appreciate music. On the other hand I don't think that those differences are somewhat significant, because in both european and asian languages - it's still a language with words, right?

I think the author was trying to draw a line between poetry / words and music / tones. I do agree that it doesn’t seem correct to blame culture (or blame anything).

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