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Comment by ivanhoe | Hacker News Reader

Also quite often this design mindset hurts the legit users, too. For instance, lean-on bench costs the same as a normal bench, takes up almost the same space, but doesn't give (valid) users the same benefits. If you are old or obese or have varicose veins, etc. you would certainly prefer to be able to sit down while waiting. Leaning against a wall/bench is just not the same thing. Also if you have a bag you can't put it on the bench or in your lap, you have to keep it on the ground (this one really pisses me off, specially when it rains). If you really go into details and analyse all the angles I'm sure you'd find a dozens more of the little sacrifices that've been made just to keep some people off the benches.

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If you miss the last train, you can no longer just sleep on the bench for a couple of hours until the first one arrives in the morning.

If you feel ill, there's nowhere to lie down for a few minutes.

You can't change your kids diapers on a bum-safe bench.

The ground is perfectly flat as well. It works great for sleeping, laying down, and changing diapers.

Except you get dirtier, you get wetter lying in the rainy puddles, there is a greater risk of rats in a subway station, and you are suddenly visibly demoted from being someone who wants a lie-down on a bench to someone who looks homeless, which decreases passers-by's sense of empathy towards you.

Hey, cool, the Camden bench also dissipates water faster, too!

Not in all climate zones.

Quick hypothetical you have a choice between taking cover from rain in a small bus stop which sadly has only this lean-on bench; or you take cover from rain in the same small bus stop expect this time there's a homeless guy sleeping on the only bench.

Good reminder to start voting in such a way that your government actually starts treating them as human beings. Where i'm from it's absolutely super easy to get a good apartment from the government, and i almost never see homeless, despite having lived in various cities with varying levels of affluence and density.

>>Where i'm from it's absolutely super easy to get a good apartment from the government, and i almost never see homeless, despite having lived in various cities with varying levels of affluence and density.

Genuinely curious. Can you provide the name of your country?

Germany.

More details at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept#Hartz_IV

If you go through the system, you'll be provided housing. It's only if you actively avoid or can't deal with the system that you can end up homeless in Germany. Part of the deal (it's a contract, actually) is having to look for work. If you can't find any, you may be required to accept any kind of job to continue to receive benefits.

Yep, good summary. Just one detail:

> any kind of job

Within limits. People have successfully sued against having to take jobs unreasonably (physical incompatibility, far away from family, etc.).

In that case, I suppose I'll try not to wake him up, and in general I'd rather a regular bench that's useful even to someone who happens not to be me.

I don't blame people who suffer an ablation of their sense of shared human dignity in response to situations like that often decried in San Francisco. It's hard to be constantly exposed to that kind of privation and not become inured to it, in self-defense if nothing else. But I try not to become that way myself, either.

So you would rather have the homeless sleeping in the rain with no roof to cover, as long as you can't see him?

There are other places to cover from rain than a bus stop, but busses seldom pick up passengers from non-bus stops.

And the comfort of public bus riders is somehow more valid than other segments of society?

Given only those two options, I prefer the world where the homeless guy has a place to sleep.

I also prefer a world where the bus is half an hour to an hour late because the drivers are striking over one where the driver has no rights.

We can have it both ways.

We will live in different places.

I can have my world with unpleasant design, and you can have yours without.

Chances are, we already do.

=) Now If only people did not want global consensus on everything

It might surprise you then that nearly every homeless guy you see "has a place to sleep", they choose (not in the "choose to be homeless sense") to sleep outside. The main reason is that homeless shelters have restrictions on violence, drug, and alcohol use, and people make a choice between comfort hand having their buzz harshed.

Now you can follow this up with a lot of "but.." arguments, but the fact remains that in most places (not all) if someone is sleeping outside rather than inside they actively made that choice.

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