My Struggle with American Small Talk
newyorker.com
newyorker.com
Of course I chat with the waitress or barista. She's a human being, she's probably cute, I might be single, this is one of the ways you get dates! Or just get to know someone -- everybody's interesting!
If it's a guy, of course I'm curious where he's from, why he's here, what he thinks of the place, what he recommends. People are fascinating and everybody's story is unique.
I used to be far less social, and then I started to realize that these kinds of interactions are one of the great pleasures in life. Even if you only exchange five sentences, you can make a quick joke and share a moment of connection.
There's nothing fake or insincere or dishonest about it at all. It doesn't matter if you're being served or serving someone else, it's just always more pleasant to treat someone else as an interesting human being and be treated as one in return.
Why would a barista (/waitress/waiter/any other serving staff) be interested in you? They serve hundreds of people a day and are most interested in taking your order as fast as possible. They have other people to serve, taking up not only the time of the barista but also the time of those other people is just rude.
The best way to treat someone as a human is acknowledging their task and being polite.
Funny thing is I've observed more Americans being downright rude to people than others, but that's probably the people I've met more than a general thing.
Of course it's completely different if you interact with people for more than 5 minutes.
You sound like someone who's never worked one of these jobs.
Because if you'd had, you'd know very well that being friendly and chatting with the customers is the best part of the job, the only part that's actually interesting, and what gets you through your day. Why wouldn't they be interested in you?! The best customers are the ones who feel like friends, even if you never see them again. They're fun! The worst customers are the ones who, as you say, "acknowledge your task" and otherwise treat you like a serving robot.
Sure, if you're pulling coffees in morning rush hour, or serving drinks on a Friday night at 9pm, then it's rude to hold up the line of course. But except for peak hours, you're not taking up anyone's time -- to the contrary, you're making their time worthwhile, and as long as you're being genuine then it's roundly appreciated.
It's all about what you expect. The US culture values small talk and makes affordances for that. Other cultures do not.
Neither is right or wrong here. Neither is better. They are just different.
I don't understand your comment, are you saying that Americans are the rudest people? It's a pretty big place where all have you been?
Perhaps if you don't understand the concept of smalltalk you might also not be versed enough in the culture to actually judge what constitutes being rude vs polite behavior.
As for the other point. I've seen Americans being polite, but I've also seen them belittling staff, shouting and being generally rude. I've also seen this from non-americans, but far less frequently. I assume this is selection bias (the American tourist syndrome - you only notice the loud obnoxious ones). This is across multiple countries.
The beauty of life is randomness and spontaneity; meeting new interesting people. But you have to be desireless, and non-intimidating without any agenda. Not consumed with the thought of capitalizing on the relationship somehow, be it sex or business networking.
I strongly disagree with the sentiment expressed in your comment and to me, it is slightly depressing. I suppose part of your logic is due to brash American guys hitting on every girl, but putting that aside, I do not want to live in a world where every interaction is clinical, and devoid of depth, of magic, and optimized for the efficiency of the economic transaction.
I want presence. I want more interconnectiveness; discovery and mystery; laughter and love. In all areas of life, in every moment possible.
This is part of it for me. It seems so arrogant and intrusive. Asking for a food recommendation (or whatever) at the place you're at, fine. Even asking a local for other suggestions in the area (restaurant, club, sights, etc.) is okay if you keep it simple. Asking where they're from and why they're there? None of your business.
You can be polite, even friendly, without all the questions and blah blah blah.
This is exactly it for me. Sure we're engaging in a commercial transaction but that doesn't preclude being friendly with one another, for however fleeting a moment. Worst case you're nice and you never see them again. Big deal. Best case you make a new friend or more.
No one is questioning that: what they are questioning the nature of the interaction.
The purpose of being friendly in a business context is to smooth interactions between people who do not otherwise know each other. It's much more difficult to be nasty to someone if they've been nice to you. Also many of us here find transactions are more pleasant when people are friendly. You don't dread going back to a place if people are friendly.
Plus when you have a service job, a brief and pleasant conversation with a stranger can help you deal with the drudgery of the job. It's an awfully long day spending 8 hours cashiering when you act like a robot all day.
In any case, some Americans and many Europeans seem to misunderstand (despite their insistence to the contrary) the function of small talk here and incorrectly interpret it as insincerity.
In some parts of the English West Country, a common greeting is "Alright my lover?" Don't assume the person addressing you as his or her lover is offering sex, and don't assume that they're being insincere when it turns out they're not. They're acknowledging your presence with the local idiom.
Similarly, in some parts of China they say "have you eaten yet?" as we say "how are you?" I don't think it's appropriate to answer with a description of what you had for breakfast and lunch that day. You probably just say "Yes, did you?"
Specifically, the part where the guy switches the interview around and asks the girls what they think about the culture of silence that the Finns have. After which they admit that it is a struggle both to shut up for them as well as not feel awkward when Finns are silent around them.
[0] https://medium.com/the-politics-practices-and-poetics-of-ope...
There was this guy, who had to expend most of his time with Finnish people, that ended the year completely paranoid about how every Finnish hated him. Lack of sun can do funny things to your head.
I think it's a part of American culture that really grates: both having people in shitty positions being exploited and having to smile about it (I view corporate culture as heavily influenced by American culture and an extension of this), and also the inverse of acting like the person with money or in charge isn't necessarily a complete boob/twit.
Give me that refreshing cynicism! Why can't we sit in silence or reflect upon how we hate our jobs/society/situation like normal civilised people! :)
This attitude is predicated on the idea that people working in retail or service jobs are doing so because they've failed to achieve some other thing, and must therefore be miserable. The truth is far more varied and complicated - for many young people, they're probably just doing it while they study, or actors waiting tables until the next role, and are picking up some great people skills in the process. Even if they're not studying towards something more academic, if they're good at what they do, they'll end picking up good skills, building a relationship with the owner, and taking over the business one day, starting a competing business, or getting recruited by a customer or supplier.
Of course, some people probably really don't want to be at their retail or service job, but it's not like every programmer, doctor, or pilot loves every minute of their job either.
I think the American custom of being nice to people working in service jobs is goes hand in hand with the prospect of social mobility. Retail and service workers are not from an inferior underclass destined to do that their whole lives - since they might end up owning the place or being your boss, or hiring your children one day, it's best to start building a cordial relationship today.
Interesting...considering that my take on it has always been the complete opposite conclusion: that the expectation of exuberant happiness displayed by a serving/exploited underclass is a kind of a social indoctrination/opiate of the capitalist class in a country with high inequality and exploitation. It's harder to form a revolution, revolt, form an organised movement, etc if the only socially and employer-acceptable position is that everyone has to appear happy and that not doing so is grounds for your removal/dismissal...
Unless social mobility is a reality, then that's just a cruel trick on the working class. "Temporarily embarrassed millionaires" and all that.
I've both worked at and of course used service industries. I've seen both sides of the counter, so to speak, and have seen different behaviors and attitudes from both staff and customers.
I've had a server run out from behind the counter to give me a huge hug (her last day, we'd had a good rapport, and I'd left something for her earlier). Still remember that, some 20 years on.
I've been kissed full on the lips by a bartender (quite unexpectely I might add).
I've shared talk and jokes with clerks and owners at several grocery stores, and had ongoing interactions on that same basis. The responses seem genuine. Same sex and I quite presume no sexual anticipiation. Simply being human.
Another store employee had commented on my unusual shopping bag (same store, other area), and over the course of two years, I carried a geographical nickname. Brought a smile to my face.
I've also had surly or indifferent service, or noncommittal "fine, you, thanks" interactions. People are ... distinctly human.
Sure, knowing precisely what's going on inside a person's head is difficult. But we're all sitting in our Plato's caves watching the shadows pass on the wall, and eventually we can make reasoned inferences. Particularly if the source of those shadows confirms the impressions. Being not overly wedded to a specific interpretation helps.
I think this doesn't happen, for fear of getting fired. What's below a service industry job? Nothing. Nothing is below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX6hMhL1YsQ
Also, welfare is below a service industry job. Some workers will (quite justifiably) tell their boss to stick it, because they'd rather sign on than put up with their bullshit.
> Also, welfare is below a service industry job. Some workers will (quite justifiably) > tell their boss to stick it, because they'd rather sign on than put up with their > bullshit.
Ah, another United States/Great Britain difference. Unemployment benefits don't work if you quit. You can't quite live on the dole here. If you went to University, there's a good chance you have many, many thousands in student loans that just don't go away. You'll need a job.
I also work a service industry job. Part of my job is to be friendly to customers. It's in my best interest, as I make just a little more than minimum wage ($1.19 more, actually), and rely on the meager tips I receive. Ah! Tipping culture! Man the US certainly is a strange place.
Coal mining? Unemployment? Disability?
On the other hand, I'm always cheerful, and I say "thanks" to people, because I know that being a service worker is a pretty tough job.
That's very interesting observation.
Unsurprisingly, welfare states that exist in homogenous cultures are seen as fairer by participants. Take a look at Scandinavia.
Its been hijacked, manipulated and transformed into smething that doesn't work for them.
Taking people (particularly those from China) shopping in Canada was always fun. I'd make the standard small talk:
(How's it going? Good, how about you? Good, loving/hating the weather?? Oh yeah, it's cold/hot/windy).
And, inevitably, my poor charges would be standing behind me, rapidly trying to write down the exchange. I had three big problems:
- explaining why I went through the ritual at every stop.
- explaining why the weather is so important.
- explaining what 'how zit going' means.
Turns out that enunciating is not my biggest strength...:)
Sure, I may never see them again, but that doesn't mean our small interaction wasn't a genuine moment. We'll never be friends with everyone but that doesn't mean we can't be nice to them.
Lastly, I noticed somewhat the same in my limited time in Central America as well. I spent a good deal of time in Costa Rica and less time in Nicaragua and Panama. I thought people there were very friendly and chatty as well, especially in smaller towns. Perhaps it was because I was a foreigner but I spoke pretty good Spanish and had many interesting conversations with strangers.
That a racial judgement is involved in the openness of a service staff member to "small-talk" is one thing that makes it appear fake and insincere.
I have a lot of empathy and am a good judge of someones mood etc so I am "good" at small talk. Something unexpected or a compliment or some such thing can go a long way.
I will often say off the wall responses to "how are you doing?" if the circumstance seems right. "I think I am doing well but I could be dying of something and not know it"
I view small talk as a chance to sharpen your people skills, can you effect someones mood for the better with a few short words? I find that skill comes in handy in all sorts of work/life environments.
After not saying anything to bartender for like half hour or so, I said "I am going to have to complain to your manager because you are working too hard and its making me tired just to watch watch you." After about 2 months I went back to same bar and bartender remembered me and said "I havent seen you in a long time I thought I scared you away by working too hard" and I got a free drink :)
In the East, I’ve heard it said, there’s intimacy without friendship;
in the West, there’s friendship without intimacy.
Maybe West could be replaced by West-of-the-Atlantic?
Societies, customs, habits, practices, mores, morals, are relative. They change with place and time. Practices accepted now, or here, are discouraged, or taboo, previously or elsewhere. Those rejected now, or here, were accepted or required previously or elsewhere.
Language and social interactions have meanings at multiple levels. Ford Prefect's observation about human chatter in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, ultimately concluding it doesn't have a specific reason, it just is.
Small-talk is social lubricant. It can be a source of pleasure (or frustration) for service workers (I've been one, it was mostly pleasure), and if well-intended, definitely helps make the day go by better. It's not always appropriate, and reading the response helps a lot. I've made my own misjudgements as both customer and staff.
But done well, it's quite welcomed.
Having said that, I've worked with a lot of non-Americans, many of whom inevitably notice (and try to adapt to) differences in social conventions between where they came from vs. the US. They often perceive those differences as being much more extreme and stark than they actually are.
Let's be clear: no one is under any sort of social obligation to actually make small talk with anyone. Yes, there are some really extroverted people who have to exchange life stories with the people they're sitting next to on a flight. Yes, there are some really extroverted people who feel obligated to exchange life stories with every barista or waiter they deal with. Yes, there are some really extroverted people who feel obligated to exchange life stories with random strangers who happen to be standing next to them in line at the bank or the grocery store or at a bus stop. Those aren't people to emulate, those people are freaking annoying. Their behavior isn't based on conforming to a social norm that everyone who sets foot in America is bound by. That's what this article sounds like, somebody who made friends with overly chatty people and has convinced himself that that is simply how things are done in America, and that cannot be farther from the truth.
On the other hand, there are some slight subtleties to be aware of, and every single one of them can be dealt with by applying just the teeniest whiff of politeness and geniality. Seriously, that's all that it is. Yes, the hallway/breakroom/elevator exchange of "How's it going?/Not bad, yourself?/Pretty good!/Well, see you later!" happens all the time. Yes, there's an element of BS to it because you probably don't actually want the other person to delineate every aspect in which "it" is "going". But that's all. It's social ritual, it's not actually small talk. It's more like an extended greeting. You could use such an exchange as a launching point for a longer discussion, but neither party is under any obligation to do so, or to stick around for it if one person does actually want to vent about their day. It's just a longer way of saying "hi" to a colleague.
Likewise, if you go to a restaurant and place your order in a low commanding monotone to the server while in unblinking stoneface mode, and never say "thank you" for anything, it may be perceived as rude, although sadly that describes > 50% of most service workers' interactions with customers on any given day so it's hardly unheard of. Really there are no expectations for social interaction, but you can ensure that there is never any awkwardness or perceived rudeness by applying the tiniest modicum of geniality. Meaning, a slight flash of a smile, maybe some very brief eye contact, maybe a little nod and a "thank you" when they do something for you. That's it. No need to do any of the things the author of this article thinks you need to do in order to not be seen as being rude in America. If you force yourself to be chatty and extroverted when you don't want to be, it'll just make things awkward for everyone. It's not something to aspire to, and it certainly isn't something that's expected of you. The only expectation is people treat one another with respect and no one treats anyone else like a servant or a socioeconomic inferior even when those things are true.
It goes both ways- the world is full of different cultures with different norms, and anytime you go someplace with different norms you may be perceived as being rude if you aren't aware of those norms. Respecting personal space is another one that stands out. I've worked and studied with people from parts of Asia where it's perfectly normal to walk down the street with someone while standing so close together as to almost touch (or actually touch). In America the social norm is to always respect other peoples' personal space and to keep at least a little distance from the other person. If two people have different ideas about personal space based on growing up with different social norms, who is being rude in this situation? I would say that neither person is, it's just a misunderstanding. However, when I travel abroad I always make an effort to do a little research into what the social norms are in the place that I'm going to. The internet makes this trivial nowadays.
I find that in the small town scenario, where I actually know the waiters, store checkers, bar tenders etc, the small talk is much the same as in Britain: "How's your day?"; "Can't complain, could be worse".
Conclusion is that the fakey US small talk is fake even for natives.