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Comment by scott_s | Hacker News Reader

> The real travesty of the current state of GMOs is that things like "Roundup-Ready" plants do nothing to reduce the usage of chemicals.

In my understanding, this is not quite accurate. The perception of "organic" farming is that they do not use pesticides, but this is not accurate. Organic farming does use pesticides, but they just happen to not be synthetic - that is, the pesticides happen to be "naturally" occurring. But that does not necessarily make them safer.

So, if you have a crop which is engineered to be resistant to a very particular, effective pesticide, then it is possible that you will end up using less overall pesticides when compared to organic farming. See http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/organic-pestici...

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Sure, there are many, many nuances surrounding the whole GMO debate. It turns out that while bt-Corn could pose a threat to Monarchs, in practice (in the wild) the risk is negligible. (One might also ponder how to weigh protection of an insect species against providing food for humans.) And, as you point out, the whole pesticide/GMO equation is not as simple as it might seem.

Nuance, moderation, and caution are the orders of the day, but these values seem to be increasingly scarce in a world of self-selecting echo chambers...

I garden organically , and I use no pesticides. What "organic" pesticides are you thinking of?

Edit: changed farm to garden

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/28/sure-...

Any chemical that is naturally occurring is considered organic. To be specific here: https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/national-... is the USDA's list of chemicals that can be used and still be labeled organic.

Lots of them [1]. Anything you buy at the store labeled "organic" could involve any of these substances, among others. In addition, because organic pesticides are less effective per unit, much more is applied to get the same benefit. [2]

[1] http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f10...

[2] http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogss...

From the piece I linked to, http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f10...

When "gardening", you can probably do just fine without using pesticides. But when you farm crops as a business, you have to do something.

> But when you farm crops as a business, you have to do something.

Several family farms at my local farmers market claim their crops are pesticide free. Now granted they are probably 10s of acres, not 1000s of acres, but they are still making a living.

Off the top of my head: Bt proteins, copper. There are many more, you can easily google and find a long list.

And yes, that's the same Bt that's in Bt crops, by the way (proteins from Bt bacteria). Organic farmers use it in a spray. It's a natural substance, and they argue the spray causes less resistance than the GM varieties. I really don't have the domain knowledge to say whether they're right.

Not all organic farmers are the same, and over time the meaning of 'organic' has been diluted. Smaller, more idealistic organic farmers mostly don't use pesticides, but there are large commercial organic growers out there who meet the bare minimum for certification and will use whatever pesticides are allowed.

Nicotine, rotenone, pyrethrins are just a few examples [1]. They are mostly derived from other plants so are regarded as organic although they can be quite toxic to humans.

[1]http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/CoopExt/4dmg/VegFruit/organic....

Nicotine is also believed to be an issue with declining bee populations.

but why do you garden with transgenics! It's unnatural!

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