Comment by lotides | Hacker News Reader

Comment by lotides | Hacker News Reader

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Is 99designs yours? Do you own or work for a similar company? You seem to be defending these practices beyond that of a disinterested observer.

Yes, Coca-Cola spends a lot of money. I've seen plenty of projects where they've wasted it. That's not the point and this isn't about that particular company.

I'm not sure where this "couture" stuff comes from, nobody speaks that way outside the fashion industry. Those of us in the design industry make a point to design a logo that is appropriate to the client.

Which brings me to another point: communication. It doesn't exist in any realistic form in 99designs or any of their competition. A one-on-one relationship with a designer can steer the client away from trends and copy-cat design and towards something long-lasting, professional, appropriate and even affordable (how many of your can afford full 4-color offset for everything you produce including large-scale signage?). Professional design has little to do with being snotty or "couture." You wouldn't build your building without an architect and you shouldn't build your brand without a designer. A 1-person company (I've owned a few) can benefit greatly from a designer consulting on the identity.

When you think of design: think function. Don't focus on the form. Yes, a tremendous part of our education and experience is in creating something beautiful, efficient and visually engaging. But just as much is put in to something function correctly. I've saved clients thousands of dollars by designing materials to be more efficient.

If cost is a concern, go directly to the designer. Here's a little secret: creative directors don't really do shit. Designers come up with the ideas, create the iterations and execute them. Many design agencies pay their designers around $30/hour with few benefits while they charge $200+/hour. Find a designer you like (portfolios and references) and see if they can fit your budget.

Finally: If you can't afford a few hundred for a logo then you don't really have a business do you? It takes money to make money. If that kind of investment in your business isn't possible then you're either not serious or you're not going to make it anyway.

The "couture"/"bespoke" thing is a just a metaphor I introduced on this thread. I'm trying to communicate about the middle ground that exists between "consultative" design (where I meet with you for several hours, tell you about my spirit animal and the colors most associated with my industry segment, and then previous several stages of rough comps before OK'ing a final design) and off-the-shelf competant samey design.

Let's agree on one thing: nobody wants total crap. Nobody wants a beveled logotype set in Arial with a lens flare behind it. That quality of design exists and it is bad and most companies cannot get away with it: it makes them look unprofessional.

But then let me suggest --- controversially, I know --- that most companies don't want high-end design either. They aren't particularly well-served by poise and restraint. They don't need to communicate a feeling or mood outside of "we are the established, trustworthy financial services in this office park".

What they need to do is take one of a couple proven, shopworn concepts off the rack and have it tailored to their business. They don't need to think about it. They don't need to waste weeks of time looking at roughs and having internal contests to pick a winner. They can get away with looking at a book for 5 minutes, saying "that one!", and getting on with their lives.

(The rest of it: not only do I not own 99designs or a competing spec work firm, but I actually don't use spec designers at all; we contract with local designers, and we do the whole consultative design dance --- we're geeky that way, and this is a luxury we give ourselves. But we don't kid ourselves about the business value of that luxury.)

I find the whole "spirit animals" B.S. a little passive-aggressive and quite offensive. That has nothing to do with the effect of design on business goals. And if you have a problem with your designer dragging things on then find somebody else.

I have nothing else to say to you. I've made the value of design, real design, quite clear. If you don't understand that value, it's a personal problem.

cough ... Polar bears? ;)

Design is valuable, but that value is of significantly different importance depending on the businesses. For some business, it's a key part of what they do. For others, it's just a checklist item. For a few, professional design would probably be harmful. (Example: The Drudge Report)

I disagree with virtually everything you have to say about design, but I apologize for the overly-snarky "spirit animals" comment.

And, being a designer yourself, you'd be an authority on all things design.

Something tells me you're not, though.

Can we agree that it's possible for a start-up to buy more office space than it needs, and that would be a waste of money? Is it also possible to buy more logo than you need? Wouldn't that be a waste of money too?

Larger companies can (and should) shell out for design, but a smaller company should be spending a much smaller amount. They don't need a 150 page branding and style guide, they just need a logo for the top of the newsletter so they can present an image that's proportional to the size of their business.

Thank you for standing up for design; it takes a beating around here.

Yeah. I did web development before I went to school for design so I've seen both sides. I even took a CompTIA A+ course at one point and run Ubuntu on my Mac.

Developers and designers both have the same anal-retentive tendencies, this need for organization and perfection that we should get along so much better. And quite often we have to work together.

I'm guessing a lot of the hate comes from developers having to work with "those" designers: the ones that should have just become an artist/painter instead of designer. That's a whole different story.

Maybe, and that's a good point, but there's also something to be said about working with "brand designers" instead of good graphic designers. Some of the inefficiency probably does come from working with frustrated artists, but some of it is also classic consulting rustproofing.

You've noticed I've been especially loud on this thread. You're right. The thing that gets me going about designers, apart from the fact that I geek out on it, is that I help run a consulting company and I'm pretty attuned to the consulting business model. I think a lot of "brand design"-types oversell services that many or even most companies don't need.

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