Hacker News Reader

Comment by cabalamat | Hacker News Reader

> The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together.

Yes it does, Russia.

Russia is not an enemy of the EU, although the NATO countries in Europe and Asia (Turkey) often treat it as such.

EDIT: Maybe some minority circles in the Russian Federation want to make it an enemy of the EU or the rest of Europe, but most people, rich and poor, don't want to. The former because of trade opportunities and the latter because of shared cultural heritage.

Russia is a schoolyard bully and should be treated as such

A less sophisticated schoolyard bully than the US, but otherwise pretty much the same. It would actually make sense for Europe to make friends with Russia; they're, after all, kind of closer (geographically and culturally), and on the same slab of land.

No, that would not make sense at all. Russia is run by an entirely different play-book than the rest of the EU.

not the same at all, US hasn't annexed territories from its neighbours for 150 years now

No, but they bombed the shit out of several countries in the last 15 years.

Also, both US and Russia do more bullying on the economic level anyway.

There's a very simple real world test - Korea. Russia created North Korea, US created South Korea. So ask any other developing country - who would they rather be allies with?

So bombing the hell off the Iraq (for exmaple) is okay as long you are not grabbing the land?

Like you can kill 300000 people and everyone is okay as long as the territory is whole.

This is the most dumb thing I've read in this thread.

now russkies are bombing the hell out of Syria, do you like it better?

Wait. Last time I checked it was the US which was bombing the hell out of Syria while claiming to fight against ISIS. Russkies are actually supporting the legitimate Syrian government, also saying they fight against ISIS.

No, but we do this after we were asked by the legit government and according to international law. While the US did that out of their own whim, even when UN said clear "NO".

Apart from the Spanish-American war, of course.

right, I stand corrected, 118 years

There's a gradient of sophistication between western and eastern. Seems to me that Westerners like to hide things under the logic and courtlaw rug while easterners are more crude in how they express painful issues. For the East, West is devious, to the West, East is barbarian.

Russia has been "sharing" culture with Romania and other eastern countries for decades during USSR. No, we do not have the same culture and we do not share the same values.

Friends you say? Oh, that's rich. Maybe when they give us back our national treasure, along with Basarabia and Northen Bukovina, which they took with the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and apologize for crushing the national identity of those regions, for starving them to death and for the mass deportations and killings, maybe then we can be friends.

But that will never happen, especially given its leadership. So until hell freezes over, they can go fuck themselves.

I see the point, but to be honest, many European countries (my own included) suffered greatly under Nazi Germany - including mass deportations and killings (but maybe sans the starving part), and yet we've forgiven the Germans. Sure, the USSR times were more recent than II WW, but I hope in years people learn to forgive Russia for the soviet times too. Keeping an "eye for an eye" attitude can get you only so far, and it's better to be friendly and work towards ensuring atrocities such like these don't happen again.

Germans went to apologize and pay retributions. Also considerable soul seeking that lasts many decades now.

Russians (there are exceptions certainly, but statistically) are proud for the oppression they did upon the neighbours and cherish it as their golden years and action plan ahead.

You do realise that in modern Russia Stalin is considered a hero and role model?

Lie. For most people in Russia Stalin is just a figure of USSR past that they do not care much about. Few people which try to bring Stalin do not have wide support and they do not make your words true.

Lie. Stalin is openly revered as an example of real leadership.

Proofs?

There's forgiveness and then there's stupid ignorance. Germans apologized and changed their ways. Russia did not.

Not the same. Both aim to project geopolitical power, sure, but US still a political entity in the western tradition where totalitarian rulers are not accepted, and Russia is of the eastern tradition where total rulers are admired and loved. Most of europe falls to the western category (roughly). There is a east/west divide in political sensibilities, it's as old as antiquity, I don't know where it's coming from, but it's a real effect.

i agree most common Russian people are very europe-friendly, but the guy up there, for whom they repeatedly vote for, is quite old school and crystal-clear in his intentions (what else to expect from ex-KGB guy).

and old school means invading central European countries at whims (Czechoslovakia, Hungary, we have not forgotten), building iron curtain and so on. Or Ukraine now, exactly same approach. This is what world sees, so yes, Russia is the biggest threat to Europe, at least on par with current mass immigration.

Trying to argue that Putin is a common enemy doesn't fly. John Major (former PM) tried that tack, nobody cared. Ukraine broke up in a nasty civil war between pro-EU and pro-Russian camps. Putin hasn't done anything that seriously threatens even the eastern countries, let alone the UK.

Europe goes more to the east than some UK :) in fact it seems to be stopping just right before that these days. It seems to be your personal UK-centric view.

trust me, people from central/east Europe feel very threatened by Russia's attacks on Ukraine. You haven't been through in past what we have been and obviously it's sometimes hard to learn from other's lessons...

Maybe they feel threatened but that doesn't make their view necessarily realistic. They hate Russians out of a deep seated distrust that has its roots in historical Russian expansionism. Whilst I do understand why they think like this I also think their world view is not reflective of actual reality on the ground in the post-Soviet American expansionist world.

Czechoslovakia ??? It was invaded and brutally occupied by Poland,Hungary and Germany. How's Russia got to do with that?

The Prague Spring, 1968, and the ensuing Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia (Operation Danube).

Russia makes a habit of invading European countries.

Unlike European contries who never invaded Russia /s

You mean that Napoleon guy, once?

I think you'd want to dive into history books. Almost all European contries (that were close to Russia or Russian Empire) did that at some point of time.

Ehm... You are bad at history. Russia withstood several Polish invasions, several Swedish ones, several German ones. It lost Crimean war to allied 'EU' forces, but in the end took peninsula back by peaceful means. What you are referring to was WW2 and its not that simple. Would you like your parents burned in Auschwitz or similar European institution, or have their chance in Siberia?

I'd rather Auschwitz: you die faster, and you aren't contributing to your oppressor's bottom line.

The EU has many enemies. Bureaucracy, Greed, Idiotism to name a few. But Russia is not among those. Russian military is fueled by German tech and French avionics, Germany is a primary market for Rusdian gas. Kohl sits in Gazprom.

"Bureaucracy, Greed, Idiotism to name a few. " which country doesn't have these enemies?

btw: it's Gerhard Schroder, not Kohl. ;o)

Far from it. Besides, when was the last time the russians invaded europe [edit:EU]?

In 2014 Russia invaded southern Ukraine and annexed it.

It's scary that no one remembers this...

Ukraine is not in the EU.

You can read, yes? He says Europe.

i edited it. the thread was about eu anyway

Crimea had a referendum. Opinion polls and independent studies in the time since have shown that the referendum results match other forms of polling, it was not rigged. They wanted to join Russia, mostly because since the fall of the Soviet Union Russian salaries are now 10x higher than Ukraine despite starting in the same place.

People who try to argue that the cold war is still running don't get anywhere with me.

Referendum was organized under supervision of Russian special forces and Russia acknowledged this. By all laws it was a military operation which is normally called annexation. Hitler made the same annexation in his times.

Interestingly, the survey conducted in 2013 in Crimea doesn't show any sign of Russian language discrimination at that time.

Which proves one more time that all Russian propaganda was just lie.

And you intentionally or unintentionally support Kremlin propaganda.

http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2013%20October%207%20...

Well, I agree we shouldn't be encouraging it, but when I pay attention to the shadow government players like Kissinger and Brzenski, they seem hell bent on bringing back the Cold War (I call it the neocold-war), mostly because while no one really speaks about it publicly, resource wars are on the horizon.

That's absurd, there was no referendum if special forces and unlabeled army forces of an invading country is there to "enforce peace" - and the rest of the world doesn't share that naive view and continues to punish Russia for it through trade deals and embargoes, lowering the quality of life of Russians and devaluing the ruble while increasing import costs for them. Tell me, how's that been going for Russia?

The Ukraine is not Europe (at least not if you contrast Europe and Russia like that) and the Crimean Peninsula has a disputed past.

Calling Ukraine "Europe" (again: in contrast with Russia) really just masks the power struggle that was going on before the annexation and the (Russia-supported) civil war. Ukraine was originally part of the "buffer zone" between Russia and the NATO. Both EU and NATO (i.e. US) were trying to change that (not that Ukrainians really complained or anything -- the prospect of EU membership was obviously exciting for many of them).

Does nobody remember the infamous "F### the EU" wiretap? It may have been published by Russia (though that was never confirmed AFAICT) but it was authentic.

The Ukraine is not Europe - google maps can help you ;)

Also it is much more Europe than Russia which is Asia by it's spirit and history despite has some European territories.

This was after the democratically elected president of Ukraine was overthrown by undemocratic means (protests) and went into exile in Russia. This subtext is conveniently ignored because the president was pro-Russia.

The US annexed Texas, ripping it off from Mexica in 1848. Give it back you bully state!

> The US annexed Texas, ripping it off from Mexica in 1848.

It annexed the Republic of Texas, which had been independent of Mexico since 1836, in 1846.

Freedom to Texas! Than we'll discuss Crimea.

Are you for real?

Russia is in Europe.

Russians dont really see themselves that way, they call it northern Eurasia. Europe is now almost synonymous with the EU and it interest sphere.

May I ask you why do you think you can represent Russians' opinion here? I am certanly Russian and feel the way you discribe.

Quite so. Huge gas pipes are connecting it to the EU.

There are also gas pipelines connecting Algeria to the EU. Is Algeria in Europe?

Certainly. It was a part of the Roman Empire, state language is French, and most money flows from France. Its apity, that geographically its Africa. I propose to rename Northern Africa the Special European Economical Interest Area.

Israel, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan (and now even Australia!) participate in the Eurovision Song Contest. So I guess the concept of Europe is flexible enough to allow for that.

"The Greater European Co-Prosperity Sphere".

North Africa is quite distinct from the rest of Africa and the middle east either way you slice it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com