The Most Expensive Cities in the World | Hacker News Reader

The Most Expensive Cities in the World

economist.com

33 pointslimist45 comments

For what is worth, this is what I could fid about the methodology:

http://eiu.enumerate.com/asp/wcol_HelpIndexCalc.asp

Basically, it says it's only useful to companies to decide what to pay their expat executives.

For the rest of us it's pretty much irrelevant. Normal people will change their consumption patterns according to their income and the local living cost. If you move from Rio to NY and then to Tokyo you'll probably settle for a smaller apartment each time.

But the index seems implausible even for its stated purpose. Let's say you're a "regular" person and are happy with x in NY; then you'll be very comfortable with 1.4x in Tokyo, and will live like a king in Rio with .85x. So what kind of stuff are execs consuming that makes those numbers equivalent?

Where is the complete list?

And it's very surprising that shanghai would be nearly as expensive as new york, a city that is already considered fairly expensive.

It depends on whom they surveyed. If they surveyed white collar workers and Western expats, the cost of living in Shanghai could very well be that expensive. If they surveyed migrant workers... no, it definitely is not.

Also, peg aside, the RMB has been strengthening in value over the past decade, and the Euro, I believe, has definitely gained against the dollar. So while NY may be expensive in the US, it is increasingly cheap when compared to certain other countries.

Yes, these lists tend to be aimed at corporate expats with spouses and children negotiating with HR about their cost-of-living adjustments for overseas assignments. So you get a basket of goods that reflects that audience --- big flat in an expat-friendly district, private schools, foodstuffs which are available locally in NY but have to be imported in Shanghai, etc.

What Hacker News really needs is a list of cities ranked on minimum cost of living: how little can a foreigner spend on housing, meals, entertainment, etc. in a given city, without being in danger of crime, disease, ceiling collapse, frostbite, or an unstable internet connection? That figure is far lower in Shanghai and even Hong Kong than in New York ...

>> "What Hacker News really needs is a list of cities ranked on minimum cost of living"

That is an awesome request, and I would gladly help compile some figures if someone wants to take point on such a project.

Anecdotally, I lived for several years in Southeast Asia (2002-2004) and at that time Hồ Chí Minh City in Việt Nam definitely had the best "hacker price index". Cost of living was miniscule, yet internet connectivity was still decent. (Better than, for example, Bangkok or KL.)

A couple of years ago, Asuncion, Paraguay won in a "cheapest city" survey. I wonder what their Internet connectivity is like.

I live in Asunción and the Internet connectivity sucks in general :( This is a link to an ADSL ISP http://www.click.com.py/planes.php if you want to see prices

I would like that list!

I would expect that there are plenty of small US cities that are cheap for those who don't want to deal with a new country while they are trying to set up a startup, however....

These charts are a thinly veiled ad for the publications for the Economist Intelligence Unit, which publish the full figures for quite a lot more money than you buy the Economist for. They are interesting, but if you really need the beef, well then you pay.

I think this list is only partial. Here's a different list I found today: http://www.citymayors.com/features/cost_survey.html

I think Wikipedia uses this one too. Apparently all these lists are flawed because they rate them against the dollar.

The best mix of price and quality of life I've found is Taipei, Taiwan. You can live very cheaply - cheap rent, the street food and convenience store food is remarkably good, cheap transit, lots of cheap access to technology, nature, art in the city and surroundings.

I was really blown away with the quality/price mix. I figure the government must be artificially keeping the Taiwan dollar down - I literally couldn't figure out any other explanation for why it'd be so cheap. The place is absolutely wonderful and I think has something to offer most people. I like Japan a lot, but Taiwan has 90% of the quality of the life, cleanliness, and conveniences at less than half the price. Worth checking out for anyone in the area, it's a city I could live in.

They're also pretty liberal about giving living/working permits, long term touring visas if you can prove you have funds, or letting you visa run as much as you want. Only downside is that visa waiver is only 30 days, but there's short hops to lots of interesting places nearby if you want another 30 days. Taiwanese people are generally pretty welcoming and it's easy to make friends there, too - highly recommended.

Are you still there? I am going to be there later this year.

Yes, the government tries to keep price down for exporters. The BigMac index shows the BigBac exchange rate of the New Taiwan Dollar is around 23 NTDs = 1 USD, but the official exchange rate for the moment is around 32 NTDs = 1 USD.

The house price in Taipei can be as high as New York City in Xin Yi, DaAn districts. But generally the rent of an apartments in DaAn district for a 2000 sq ft doorman elevator building is around $1,600 to $2,000 USDs.

There drawbacks to live in Taipe. Although English is taught in schools, people still have problems to communicate in English. To be able to live like locals, you need to be able to speak Mandarin or Taiwanese dialect well enough, and be able to read signs in Engrish and guess what authors meant.

is Taipei behind the Great Firewall? What kind of price is normal for middle of the road livable apartment in a central location with a stable net connection and food / incidentals per month in your experience?

For the record, Sydney figure in my experience is about 2.5k AUD per month, Tallinn figure in my experience is about 900 AUD.

Taiwan is NOT RULED by China. There is no restriction to access Internet in Taiwan. But the bandwidth to U.S., Europe is limited due to number of undersea optical cables available.

Once in a while the cable between Taiwan and Hong Kong or Japan was cut off by fishing fleet by accident, it usually takes weeks for bandwidth to resume to previous level.

Mumbai is at the bottom of the list and Shanghai much above it. What a dramatic contrast for the economic hubs of two leading economies of the world.

Tokyo is up to number 2? No wonder I'm constantly poor.

Been thinking about this lately though, it looks like Tokyo is home to more Fortune 500 companies than any other city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Global_500#2009_breakdo...

So it might be the best place for a B2B start-up.

Frankfurt?

Why is Frankfurt ranked so high? It's not a capital city, and in general Germany is relatively cheap for Europe.

https://www.frankfurt.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=3403908

Agree. I'm German living nearby and it always amazes me what Frankfurt is doing in these rankings.

Frankfurt is a financial center and has a huge airport hub. Since these rankings are based around 'executive-level' compensation, these things make a major difference.

Anecdotally this seems true to me—when moving to London 4 years ago I was taken aback by the cost, but recent visits to my hometown of Sydney has also surprised me at how much it's "caught up" with London.

Bit surprised Moscow is lower than London—it cost the earth when I was there a couple of years ago.

In the article, Moscow's drop in price is attributed to the drop in the Rouble against the Dollar...this feels right to me also since Russia has been less openly aggressive recently, which would lead to a cheaper cost of living I guess.

Moscow was #1 in 2006 & 2007. It's the drop of the ruble and the impact of the economic crisis that hit it so bad.

While low expenses are a good thing, I've learned the hard way I'd much rather pay higher rent to live somewhere I am happy, than to halve my expenses and live somewhere not as nice.

On the other hand, I think I'd appreciate almost any of the cities on this list.

I wonder what caused the move from 8th to 17th by London, and likewise 17th to 12th in Sydney?

Property Values? I've heard that austrilia hasn't had a real estate bubble 'pop' yet.

though some media reports may say otherwise, australia hasn't had a significant decrease in property values in the last 5 years.

there are some isolated cases of properties/suburbs falling significantly in price, but absolutely nothing like what has happened in the united states.

in particular, inner city areas have continued to experience growth year on year.

Likely a steep decline in the pound against other currencies.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=GBPEUR

The fluctuation of the dollar has no impact if your entire income and expenditures are all in a different currency. But as others here mention, this kind of chart is mostly for "expats" living in a bubble.

Is it just me, but every city at and below the 100 mark are world renowned for their criminal histories, and all the cities above it are not.

Sydney (which was a penal colony) doesn't count as having a "criminal history"?

Yes, because the presence of a Mafia in an area is really the same as the presence of a prison. That's outstanding logic!

was, not has.

You do realise that Australia was originally founded as a penal colony. And that about 50% of the First Fleet (thus 50% of the entire colony/city) were convicts. Wiki tells me that about 165,000 convicts were sent here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convicts_in_Australia

Every city on the list has a prison. Not many of them were originally intended to be a prison.

Chicago is 36 and it has had its fair share of crime. Al Capone? Mayors that bulldoze operating airports in the middle of the night because they want to build a park there?

Ever heard of the Paris suburbs? They are not a nice place.

Yes, but it's not about the suburbs in this survey. Paris suburbs are a lot more cheaper, and many of my friends flew Paris to get there. Paris is appealing to the wealthy and old people,and because of them the costs of real estate are sky rocketting, a lot of young people cannot afford an appartment in Paris. And 10 euros a beer when the average income is 1500 euros/months is ridiculous. I want cheap beer !

I seem to remember that beer everywhere in France is comparatively expensive to Germany or the UK, for example. I also seem to remember that really good wine is surprisingly affordable - certainly in France I would always drink wine and not beer.

Let's take as a benchmark intentional homicide rates: North America 6.5, West Europe 1.5. Also, more murders per capita in US than Armenia or India.

You'll need to be more specific. They have really nice ones Levallois, Neuilly, Versailles. And not so nice ones: St. Denis, aubervillier. If you take the train from CDG to Paris than you only see the bad. The train from Orly to Paris has lots of nice areas. Anything by La Defense and Versailles has as sizable expat population, ie. $£€, so they are well off.

Just like New York's South Bronx doesn't surround the city. The bad suburbs don't surround Paris.

Yet another reason to not start a startup in Paris.

Chicago is as expensive as New York? Really?

yeah, no way. we have outrageous sales tax, but rent is fairly reasonable.

The good news is that we have no stores, so there is never an opportunity to collect that sales tax.

I'm with you. I'm in SF now but Chicago was home for a long time just a year ago. What's changed? It was on-par with Dallas with rents and overall cost of living.

That is with the glaring exception that Dallas has no income tax but a high sales tax. Chicago has both.

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