If this hack can be stopped, then it demonstrates that the currency can be manipulated, that the decentralised system is not so fault tolerant or uncensored after all, and that people out there know this.
If this hack can be stopped, then it demonstrates that the currency can be manipulated, that the decentralised system is not so fault tolerant or uncensored after all, and that people out there know this.
Also to your point, yes, Ethereum is not as decentralized as some would like to claim, either from a stakeholder perspective, or from a mining perspective, or even from a 'who holds the power' perspective. I suspect that's what makes it so efficient though, in terms of changing protocol, or making decisions on behalf of stakeholders.
[1] http://247cryptonews.com/vericoin-lack-integrity-bailout-min...
[2] https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/official-nxt-decision-blockc...
[3] http://www.newsbtc.com/2014/12/17/opal-recovers-1-7-million-...
When adoption is low it stands to reason centralization would be high, and so it enables them to move faster to increase adoption, and hence lower centralization as other players and stakeholders enter the game.
However it does also stand the risk of allowing the current influential parties (the developers or miners) to influence the system in their favor. So far though, I don't think this has been the case, but we'll see how this situation plays out.
Also, centralization/decentralization is a a scale, not discrete boolean values.
It will definitely be interesting to see how this plays out. Good luck to everyone involved.
Since if this is a problem and will be fixed, it will presumably be by consensus. We already know that with consensus the entire system can be changed (or forked, if you like). This is no secret and there was never any claim otherwise. This is exactly what they mean by decentralised.
What should worry you is if a change happens without consensus, but there is no such indication here.
Halting trading is a show of force too, if they believed a single thing of what they preach they'd let the free market continue its course with the hacker walking away with the money.
Looking at your comment history it seems clear you have an agenda here, so I'll ignore the ad hominem.
In the history of organization structures, for example, Peter Drucker in 1946 wrote the "Concept of the Corporation", a study on General Motors, which was arguably one of the early detailed studies of Decentralized governance in an organization.
Decentralisation does not preclude "force". The one really has nothing to do with the other. Unless your idea of "decentralization" is actually the solipsist view that every person is an island, and social structures hold no benefit for survival.
Decentralization doesn't prevent coordination.
Exchanges are in a difficult position once the 'head' of ethereum tells them to stop. It's a sign that the blockchain might be forked, so any further trades they make might be undone - they simply have little choice but to stop after being told to do so.
Not at all. This is a classic "coordination problem". It is advantageous for many participants in the overall system to take an action, but only if the other participants are ALSO taking the action. In such a case, a widely followed and popular leader is one possible coordinating mechanism. And it does not give that popular leader the ability to do ANYTHING, only things that actually ARE popular but require coordination.
That's the exact opposite of decentralized. Are we going to have to redefine the word?
How do you imagine decentralised decisions happening otherwise? Everyone choosing their own solution without ever talking to each other and seeing what is most popular?
My idea of "decentralized" includes things like "continues to function perfectly well if any one person or small group is removed from the process" and "continues to function perfectly well if any one person or small group becomes malicious".
In this case, if Vitalik Buterin were not around to announce the problem, someone else could announce it and that would provide a coordinating signal for all of the independent players to act on. If Vitalik Buterin were malicious and decided to announce a rollback of a big spend he had done, then the independent miners and mining pool operators would (I hope) choose to ignore the announcement and refuse to participate.
I guess to me, having a centralized group or individual make decisions seems to violate "decentralized", but having one of several possible groups or individuals make announcements which signal the population to take action does not.
I didn't stop eating excess salt until my doctor asked me to do so - and it was totally in my interest.
This is, of course, absurdly optimistic.
The reason for this is that ethereum exchanges are not decentralized and the "program" that the owners of the exchanges execute on their brains partly allows "dynamic mental code update" by Vitalik Buterin.
And the governmental powers-that-be can press a button and prevent citizens from exchanging cash?
The anti-fiat crowd should think for a minute on how money actually works in practice.
Why is that different for Ethereum?
So while there is no clear single party that makes decisions, active developers have the most say.
It's sad, being able to write blockchain apps like with ethereum and lisk is cool tech, but we'll have to deal with the idea that once is out, it's out. Programming NASA style.
My thought exactly. And despite putting a little money into the DAO myself, this is the kind of risk I was willing to take. I should lose my money. Miners should vote strongly against this fork.
I know in the Bitcoin community this wouldn't be accepted, not so sure about Ethereum though where the developers have a lot more control (than they should IMO).
The counterpoint to your statements is simply that consumers need safety with their money. It is no badge of honor to let unsophisticated technical people lose money for some extreme libertarian ideals.
A soft fork will undeniably require distributed consensus. It is the number of people with the actual right to vote that may be worrisome.
Perhaps the pool owners should extend their voting rights to their pool contributors, pooling votes as they pool mining shares.
(Disclaimer: I hold a small amount of ETH and participate in a mining pool.)
With all respect Peter, this is not FUD and OP is raising a valid concern. Yes, the miners vote on the patch - but given the infant state of the ecosystem and the large loss incurred, even further controversy or delay in finding a resolution may cause them permanent economic harm; so it would appear that there is little leeway in the choice involved.
> The counterpoint to your statements is simply that consumers need safety with their money. It is no badge of honor to let unsophisticated technical people lose money for some extreme libertarian ideals.
Yes, that's certainly the argument, particularly that if there is majority agreement than the protocol change is justified. But this doesn't at all invalidate OP's concern that fundamentally algorithmic contract's aren't binding if such an alteration can be adopted. The case could be made that in a more mature ecosystem such case specific alterations are more potentially damaging than useful and that this is a transitional phase, yet I think the burden of proof is on the one responding.
I think we agree on this. The reality is that an active choice will still have to be made by a consensus group, though. It's not a matter of something being forced down the throats of a majority by an oligarchy, it's utilizing the existing consensus mechanism.
I think OP should be well warned here as to what is binding with smart contracts, for sure. This isn't any different than risk calculations in Bitcoin, though -- early days advice was to wait six blocks for transactions over $20, because the cost of subverting the network was very low. This is part of the give and take of mining and distributed consensus with current technologies.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oiqj7/critical_u...
All the talk of /ethereum/ being decentralized.
So, in computer science terms, consensus algorithms are about approximating distributed consensus in the face of benign and malicious threats or communication failures, which devolves to "quorum / majority" pretty quickly in a crisis.
After the crisis, some kind of compensation, reconciliation or excommunication has to happen with the portion that disagreed.
A distributed system can easily make a majority decision that is unwise, like if the votes are based off of bad information. But if the different options of the decision could be formalized and checked/proven as part of the decision making process, based off of axioms and values that participants all agree on, then perhaps the most rational decision could be selected even if it's not what the majority was initially in favor of.
https://github.com/ethereum/mist/releases/tag/0.7.5
I realize this is the wallet development but they are absolutely related and shows the culture of this software is not as professional or thought out as it should be.
Once it gets bigger the security goes up as events like this affect the currency less and less.
Edit: to be clear, the 51% attack I'm referring to is actually the defense of the network by developers/miners/users that the parent post is complaining about.
I wonder how different ether will turn out to be, will they bail it out by rolling back the blockchain?
But when did he know how to do this? Was it a secret that he was sitting on, or has he only learnt about it from the existing attack?