The way Upwork treats loyal freelancers | Hacker News Reader

The way Upwork treats loyal freelancers

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136 pointsBuzdyk_Gregory21 comments

This is emblematic of what I suspect will be a serious problem going forward for a lot of companies as "tech startups" more and more become just "companies" that millions and millions of people are supposed to use and depend and base their lives and livelihoods on.

There's a cultural thing in tech companies that is borne somewhat from the wild west feeling of the early internet, where it's considered OK to do things like throw people off a platform, take their existing earnings or funds, or make it so they can't message people or similar, without even telling them, or without any ability to communicate or seek redress, all in the name of "Trust & Safety"

This is a philosophy that was fine when these companies were small and could be easily overwhelmed by fraud, but it doesn't scale and leads to truly epic amounts of bad blood with customers.

We have things like consumer credit laws, and common carrier rules, and the Montreal Convention, and state licensing and regulation, because over the years the public decided that it wasn't OK to just leave things like this up to companies. Maybe not soon, but eventually there is going to have to be a reckoning for tech companies that ignore the reality that they eventually would be wise to have rules, transparency, and accountability before it is forced upon them.

I have almost the same story but from employer side: last year right before Christmas they decided to reject my2 years working card, as bonus they didn't accept paypal for some reason. So In order to pay my freelancer I have to come a long verification procedure, call them dozen of times, until they gave "secret" paypal account that I have to fulfill.

In my observation Upwork (oDesk) don't want to ear money. They make everything to stop using the service.

My solution was moving to Payoneer directly (They have really AWESOME and simple partnership program) and time tracker I'm using hubstaff (Yes, $5 per freelancer).

In result with direct payonner partnership and hubstaff, the total overhead of payments to my freelancer is less than 1%. JUST 1%. Thank you upwork, you helped me to realize that there's more one solution, even if at begging it was scary the output worths it: saving money, simplify team management, AWESOME support. I'm really happy!

The few people I know personally (as in, real life) who use these platforms do nothing but complain about them (while continuing to make a living with them). It reminds me of eBay and PayPal back in the day - the platforms had great value for users, but the sheer number of variables that could go wrong meant there were always complaints.

Well, I was recommending Upwork to nearly every developer I know. Plus founded a russian slack conference about freelancing through Upwork.

I love it. It helped me so much to bootstrap my freelance career.

In the same time things described in the post made a lot of good freelancer leave the platform. B/c it's an easier way to cope with it's mechanical support.

In my experience, Craigslist has much a much more valuable asset than Upwork to my freelance career

Was you by any chance living in USA at the time?

I am and have been living in Toronto, but I hear that craigslist is even bigger in the US than Canada, so I presume the same is likely.

Could you please tell more about your experience with Craigslist?

Sure, Craigslist is how I first broke into the industry.

I learned how to code through codeacademy and just tinkering on some projects, then started to go to Craigslist looking for random tech/programming jobs to see how viable it was. And there were in fact many programming jobs ranging from beginner computer jobs for random people needing help to companies needing short-term or irregular contract work. There are also many normal job postings looking for beginner/intermediate/experienced programmers located in the city too.

The best part about craigslist though is the informalness of the dialogue. I would just send each poster a few sentences saying basically I'm a programmer in the local area who knows html, css javascript php, etc. And here are a few of the projects I have worked on (list my own sites). Some postings require a bit more elaboration but usually not by much. This means it's easy to apply to several very quickly. It's a numbers game at the end of the day.

Also, it's possible to apply to jobs from all the local cities or really wherever. Some will require you be local, but most can be done remotely (phone calls, skype etc.).

After a while you begin building up a list and portfolio of clientele and basically keep taking progressively higher paying gigs while substituting out the lower paying ones.

I don't know what your terms/conditions are with upwork, but if you've been with the same place 14 months, couldn't you cut out the middle man there? Would there be anything stopping you from going back if you need to find a new gig?

That is against their TOS.

Upwork encourages you to do all messaging on the platform, and scans your messages for hints that you are trying to move work off the platform. If so, they give you temporary bans or other punishments.

I'm not saying that no one does this, but Upwork are vigilant about it.

That seems akin to a dating site that bans users for discussing marriage...

That's because married couples would blame the dating site when getting divorced :)

That sounds like a terrible environment to lock yourself into, but it also seems pretty ineffective. If I was temporarily banned for hinting that I was going to leave the Upwork platform, that would be a trigger to leave it even more quickly.

Leaving the Upwork platform permanently isn't what bothers them[1]; they're worried more about the while loop where you:

* Obtain a lead on Upwork

* Request moving off of Upwork to avoid fees

* Do subsequent payments through Paypal or similar.

In this case, you aren't moving off the platform entirely and banning you will hurt your lead generation.

[1] At least in the context of this specific case.

The non-circumvention clause lapses after 24 months (from the date you first "identify" that person through the site.) So, kinda bad but not terrible https://www.upwork.com/legal/ (There is a buy-out clause, but it's pretty expensive.)

How do they prevent/monitor phone calls? It almost seems like the nature of the beast for this type of organization: you help establish the relationship and take a commission. If they want to take the relationship "to the next level" then you just have to accept that.

Of course, it's not that easy, especially if you feel you're being cut out of money you are "owed."

There is a specific callout about "disintermediation" in their onboarding process. They frame it as being dangerous for you.

I've just got started on Upwork recently. My experience so far has been positive, but that doesn't mean much considering how little I've used it.

What are my other options for getting into freelancing?

What do you do? If you have front end skills, find businesses in your area that don't have a website or have a crappy one. Reach out with your portfolio and examples of other businesses you've helped and either make them a site, or offer to get their google and yelp info in order so they can manage that better, upload their hours, etc.

You don't need to rely solely on sites like this to find work :)

Pro tip: ditch the sarcasm on serious matters.

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