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Not if Toronto keeps hemorrhaging talent. I graduated from the University of Toronto last year and can only name 2 of my classmates who are actually working in Toronto now. The rest are in SF, Seattle, and NYC - including many people who have family in Toronto, like me. All of my friends who were seriously working on a startup have moved it to the Bay Area.

Many of us would love to move back to Toronto 'eventually', for family reasons and because it's a great city overall, but for now the money and opportunities in the States are too good. In SF I'm making 2-3x what I'd make in Toronto and get to work on a globally-relevant system. And 80% of my social network is here now, too.

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Waterloo grad here. Seeing pretty much the same thing.

Really not difficult to imagine why Canadian tech companies have mostly stopped being competitive on the global stage, considering most of the talent they have access to at these pitiful salaries are essentially left-overs.

Unfortunately, I honestly don't see how the situation can improve. It's a classic tragedy of the commons situation. Companies act in self-interest by paying as low as they possibly can, with no regards for the damage being done to the Canadian talent pool, and have little incentive to do otherwise until most of their peers do the same.

Interestingly this is almost the same commentary for every "next silicon valley" city we read about here. I think sometimes people are trying to cash in on the ideal before it's even been formed. Why is everyone so rushed to be the next SV anyway? Why not be the best Toronto, or whatever city of focus that happens to support entrepreneurship through whatever programs.

I feel like being a next SV town is sort of like how every un-employed person I know is the CEO of a startup : / .

> Interestingly this is almost the same commentary for every "next silicon valley" city we read about here.

That may be true, but you have to realize even the other "next silicon valley" contenders in the US can easily offer more than double the salary to developers compared to Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto is not even playing in the same league in that aspect.

:*(

Even worse than the salary is the attitude at Toronto area startups. Elitist "you-should-feel-so-lucky-you're-at-a-startup-now-work-for-peanuts"...

Leaving the Toronto ad-tech startup I was at to work (remote) for a NYC ad-tech startup (well, recent startup and growing) was the best thing that ever happened to me. Got lucky to work for the best founders and senior management I have ever had in my career.

Well, sounds like that got that part of Silicon Valley right.

Outside of silicon valley and New York salaries in the US are not actually that great. According to glassdoor the average junior developer is actually only 60k when you consider the whole country. Junior software engineer on payscale is median 55k.

Also, in some place like San Fransisco the cost of living is going to be 2x or more, so that 2-3x higher salary will end up translating into maybe 1.2x. Salaries in Toronto are still low, but not nearly as much as some people make it out to be.

The US is a big place, so if you look at it as a whole it's definitely not going to look as attractive. If you look specifically at the tech hubs however, even if we don't account for the 2 biggest US tech hubs, SV and NYC, places like Seattle and Boston still have much higher median salary and salary potential compared to the two biggest Canadian tech hubs, Toronto and Vancouver, and with comparable cost of living to boot.

The AngelList salaries data confirms this at least when it comes to the startup job sector: https://angel.co/salaries

Sampling a bunch of the jobs listed for Seattle shows that most are senior level. Senior level in Toronto is less on average, but it's definitely not half as much in comparable places.

One notable exception is Amazon, who starts people out of school at 90k. This is definitely an outlier. If you can get into Amazon out of school, might be worth taking advantage of it.

> Sampling a bunch of the jobs listed for Seattle shows that most are senior level. Senior level in Toronto is less on average, but it's definitely not half as much in comparable places.

I fail to see the value in making a distinction in terms of seniority unless you have good reasons to believe why the Seattle postings on AngelList might be skewed towards senior level to a higher degree than the Toronto postings, but your point is certainly valid.

If we look at the aggregate data, Toronto and Vancouver have average salaries of $61K and $59K respectively, and Seattle and Boston, $92K and $91K. That's closer to 1.5x, so "more than double" was definitely a bit hyperbolic, but this vicious death spiral (of low Canadian salaries -> brain drain into the US -> under-competing Canadian companies -> rinse and repeat) has been taking quite a toll on the Canadian tech sector, and has serious implications for its future, so I'd rather err on the side of hyperbole over understatement because I have a vested interest in this matter as a Canadian citizen and tech worker.

> Also, in some place like San Fransisco the cost of living is going to be 2x or more, so that 2-3x higher salary will end up translating into maybe 1.2x.

This is a pretty important point...

Currently it looks like a ~100k salary in San Fransisco is required to maintain the same standard of living that 55k gets you in Atlanta, Dallas, Raleigh, Pittsburgh, and essentially every other big city I've looked at. So about 1.8x higher is required.

For Toronto it's about 1.9x.

I've heard this argument often and it's somewhat valid, but it doesn't take into account that the amount left after expenses are paid is still a lot more in the Bay Area, and that can be saved or invested or used to open up other options which are not available to the person making half as much with half the expenses somewhere else.

Cars cost basically the same across the US. So do flights, vacation homes, stocks, etc. For many, the idea is to pay the high cost of living here, save up, then move to somewhere much cheaper after an early retirement, career change, etc. Or you can stay until you retire and be extremely wealthy relative to the rest of the country / world. For me, it's not a tough choice, even though rent is ridiculous.

Edit: let us not also forget that the ceiling for pay as an engineer in the Bay Area is currently around half a million a year in salary, more if you get valuable stock options. It's not really possible to come close to that anywhere else as far as I'm aware. The average is lower than that, but where I'm from, you'd be very lucky to get 100k as a senior engineer. It makes things like renting a place here while paying off the mortgage on a home you rent out elsewhere (Portland or Hawaii or whatever you're into) totally viable.

> For many, the idea is to pay the high cost of living here, save up, then move to somewhere much cheaper after an early retirement, career change, etc.

I can definitely understand why this is attractive. Maybe I'm on the other side of the argument because I'm not really an engineer and don't plan on being one. So while there are jobs I'd consider in the Bay Area, there's a similar number of similarly paying jobs in NYC and DC, where rent is less.

> Cars cost basically the same across the US. So do flights, vacation homes, stocks, etc.

Yes, but the cost of living calculator should be resulting the same amount saved, after all expenses are paid.

> Edit: let us not also forget that the ceiling for pay as an engineer in the Bay Area is currently around half a million a year in salary

This is the most convincing argument, I think... If that's true, that the ceiling (after adjusting for cost of living) is higher in the Bay Area, then yeah it's a pretty clear choice for engineers.

agreed. and I agree with many people out here in Seattle, that I'd really rather not see the city become "the next Silicon Valley". I'd much prefer Seattle become the best it can be, by itself, without needing to draw on Silicon Valley (or anywhere else, for that matter) for guidance and inspiration. that's the way I'm sure a lot of people here and in other cities feel about their own towns.

> Why not be the best Toronto

Toronto is already the best Toronto in the world, although it was a close competition last year.

With whom

This happened before in the late 90s. Before the first bubble. What happened then was some slingshot effect, when Canadians go to SF and make $200K for 10 years, and still can't afford a house and are faced with mediocre schools unless they want to commute (which they don't) they may come back.

come back to Toronto where they also can't afford a home? Or live in the suburbs of the GTA and slog it through some of the worst traffic in North America for two hours each way?

SF Bay Area isn't that much different from GTA. High housing costs, high cost of living, long commutes. Although the big difference is that the high salary somewhat makes up for it (although whether or not the salary is actually high enough is debatable).

Yep the salaries in the Bay Area are from what I have seen about double what one would get in the GTA. The housing prices are insane, but a nice three bedroom in Toronto that is transit accessible to the downtown is just shy of a million $ now, or over it. And the salaries are far lower.

So yeah, a lot of talent will just go south. Or get lucky like me and go work for Google in Waterloo. The actual Toronto employment market is pretty yuck.

> a nice three bedroom in Toronto that is transit accessible to the downtown is just shy of a million $ now

I own a house that is on two bus routes, and it takes me 45 ~ 50 minutes to get downtown (specifically work which is right downtown), and it's not even close to that price.

[That said, I looked into moving to another neighbourhood with worse transit access that was not that far away, and the real estate agent was selling it with a "crap" house for ~$800K with the idea that you would spend money on top of that to tear the existing house down and rebuild another one on top of it.]

Too late to edit, but I realize that I may have not been entirely clear with the 'not even close'. My house is worth much less than the $1m price point mentioned above.

Detached house is over 1M in Toronto. But there are plenty of semis and townhouses that are way less (700K?) and condos walkable to downtown for half of that.

Amazon is in a class-A tower right next to the banks and they cannot hire enough.

And ALL the good engineers I know have good jobs in Toronto or Waterloo. But there are plenty of bad ones that wouldn't pass a phone screen.

Winnipeg will rise again.

Montréal is going great too.

Something something Hamilton!

I definitely knew who wrote this comment before checking it.

I'm rooting for Hamilton. I live just outside it. It's a place with such huge potential.

But seems like the centre of gravity for not-Toronto tech in southern Ontario is Waterloo, unfortunately.

Compared to SF? And it's not the only factor. And I didn't say they'd all come back to Toronto. Schools, proximity to extended family, less likelihood of mass shooting, and room in your house for your kids can all be additional factors. If you're established enough in your career, you can work remote for US companies or bring work with you in some other way. Sure, Toronto and Vancouver aren't cheap, but they're more affordable than many places in the bay area, especially for what you get.

toronto salaries would shock most american developers. a startup i interviewed at starts entry level developers at $42k and senior developers were making $70k. i was told my ask of $125k cdn was double what they would consider paying me

I am not sure what startups you are applying for, number one rule in Toronto is 1. never use a recruiter because they take 20-10K of your salary, or the companies hiring budget. 2. Apply to startups that are doing well. I am making 120K cad, at a startup. I am a senior tl in training though.

Yeah, anything over $100K CDN is basically impossible in Toronto - anyone that good is already working down south.

Hit the nail on the head. Until Toronto can match the competitive salaries in the Bay Area I will be working in the US.

Kind of surprised that this seems to be the sentiment. I rather live in a place where I make less, but the wealth is better distributed. To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me. If Toronto is to be the next Bay Area, and I have to walk over the homeless to get to work, I'm out of here.

> To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me.

To most it's the opposite. Wealth is relative so I'd rather live in a 3rd world country making $50k than SF making $150k.

I doubt anyone can make you leave the States or Canada to work on a third world country for that paltry amount of money.

Have you ever lived in a third world country? I lived in Bangladesh until I was 5. Homeless people in SF is one thing. But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that.

Yes, I lived in Vietnam (where the median salary is $150-$200 a month) for 6 months on ~$20,000.

It was loads of fun and I enjoyed a lifestyle equivalent to earning at least $250k back in SF. Hotel room in the city center, maid service, bar night every night, motorcycle, valet parking everywhere, restaurants 3x a day, etc.

> But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that

There appeared to be a lot less of that level of poverty in Saigon than in SF, but maybe that's because poor people don't live in the city like they do in the US. In any case, my presence there surely wasn't making anyone poorer so I don't feel bad about it.

I don't think rayiner suggested that you're contributing to the state of affairs, just that its rather heartbreaking to see the level of abject poverty in many non-western countries. And even if it sounds supremely selfish, I do like living in an area/country where I don't have to see that every day on my way to work.

If you're an American you need 6 figures to pay back your $100k+ student loan debt. It's not like these young tech employees are living high on the hog. They move to these tech centers because they have to.

If you work in Toronto as a programmer, you are middle class or upper-middle class or you should be looking for a different job. There's plenty of work.

Student loans of 100k+ are very atypical for an American graduate. The average undergraduate indebtedness at graduation is closer to 30k.

Have you lived in Toronto? Houses in the city average over 1M CAD and there are tons of vagrants on the street.

I've lived in Toronto and Portland (Oregon). Portland had more vagrants than I've experienced in Toronto. I'm sure the absolute number is probably higher, but the distribution doesn't seem the same. From what I hear, SF also has a large problem with vagrants / homeless. I'm not sure that "move to SF" is the solution to the "I don't want to be around these vagrants" problem.

Just making sure, my point was not "I don't want to be around these people". My point was that I don't want to partake in a system which such a big income-gap.

In the Netherlands (where I come from) the average saleries for programmers are even lower, but in return you get a pretty great social system and a much saner work/life balance.

I wouldn't assume that Toronto does a better job at income equality, just that the weather is significantly harsher.

I currently live in Toronto, but I didn't buy a house. My monthly expenses would be nearly 30% higher for a morgage and condo fees for the place I'm renting now. I rather invest that in a business.

As for people living on the street. According to wikipedia the estimated homeless population in San Fransisco is between 7000 and 10000. The estimated number in Toronto is 5,253 (source: Toronto.ca), but since Toronto has 3.5 times the population, this means that the homeless population is at least 5 times bigger.

Have you considered Seattle? I used to work in Toronto and I am currently living here and I love it.

The greater Toronto area includes other cities and the suburbs. Not a fair comparison to SF proper.

Compare SF bay area to Toronto would be more fair.

I'm not sure any comparison would ever really be fair simply because SF is much more hospitable in the winter as compared to Toronto. That has an effect on homeless populations as well. Compare Vancouver and Toronto and you'll see a similar difference.

The city of Toronto is a lot bigger than SF as a result of amalgamation[1], but most vagrants "live" in downtown core, which is an area a lot smaller than SF.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgamation_of_Toronto

I recently had to make that same decision myself, and chose Toronto. The salaries on the jobs I was interviewing for (not to mention perks) were astronomically high. I'd considered just going to work for 3 years, saving as much as I could, then coming back to Canada.

I the end, I worried that I would never come back in spite of my early intentions. Toronto's a great city, and I'm quite comfortable with my compensation, but I don't begrudge anyone who moves for the chance to be instantly wealthy.

You forget that as you move out, talent moves in as well!

I collaborate with a bunch of super-talented creative people here and all of us are new to the city. Just because Toronto-born people leave doesn't mean Toronto has a talent shortage :D

It depends on how long they can resist the suction that is the Bay Area.

Could be worse. Salaries in London, UK are even lower than Toronto.

Doesn't feel like it for me.

It was anecdotal but I think once you factor in rent it's definitely lower.

Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in centre of Toronto is £750. In London it's twice that and probably not in the centre. Plus tenants pay the taxes on property in the UK.

Taxes are also higher in the UK than Canada. Travel cards in Toronto are fixed at £75 a month. In London you pay for your zone which starts at £124.50 going above £300+ for Zone 9. No doubt it's a better network but Toronto's flat rate system is better on your wallet.

do you get a green card easier as a canadian than people from europe for example? I'm from germany and know many people who would like to work in the states, but it's really a big problem to get the green card. It takes companies much effort and money to get you in the states for more than 3 months.

Canadians get access to TN class work visa. It's meant for temporary work, but gives a few years to figure out a more permanent approach.

What would a more permanent approach be? Marriage?

H-1B, O-1, L-1, and perhaps more.

I thought the H-1B was a temporary visa?

I am not an immigration lawyer, but this is my understanding: The H-1B is similar to the TN but each have their pros / cons: TN is much cheaper (~$50 + lawyer fees) and there is no cap / application deadline. You apply at the border so there is also virtually no waiting time assuming you get it.

The downside of the TN is that it is a "temporary" permit. Technically it's not actually a visa. It simply allows you to work and live in the US for a "temporary" amount of time. The temporary part is very gray in this case, since it is up to the discretion of the border guard to determine if you are using it in a temporary sense. Similar to the H-1B it can last for up to 3 years, and can be renewed after that.

The other big difference is that dual-intent is not allowed on the TN permit. In other words, you are not supposed to apply for a green card while you are on it. The H-1B is dual intent and therefore that's what you want if you want to get a greencard.

A pretty typical path for Canadians who start working in the US and decide to stay is TN -> H-1B -> Green Card. However, it is not easier for Canadians to get an H-1B. They must participate in the lottery like everybody else.

One correction:

> "In other words, you are not supposed to apply for a green card while you are on it."

You can actually do this, it's very painful but it's not rare. The gotcha is that the moment you leave the country your TN is kaput, so you're effectively trapped in the USA until the green card process is complete.

> The gotcha is that the moment you leave the country your TN is kaput, so you're effectively trapped in the USA until the green card process is complete.

Not quite true. Once you've filed for adjustment of status (which you can only do once your priority date is current), you can also file an I-131 for advanced parole, and after receiving this, you can leave and re-enter the US with it. Technically you're not on a TN anymore though.

It is a NON IMMIGRANT Guest Worker Visa good for 3 years. It can be extended for an additional 6 years. If they apply for a green card, it can be extended indefinitely on a yearly basis.

Virgil Keep America At Work

Don't forget eb5 except it's super slow. Probably takes 2 years from initial investment until you have your conditional greencard. Then another couple of years until you have a full fledged one.

Work in overseas branch as a manager. Get moved to US on L1 visa. Apply for employment based green card, takes about a year.

Isn't this how a lot of the big firms are using Their European offices? I've met a lot of people in the valley that worked in places like Zurich, or London for their first year with the company before moving to CA.

Companies will sponsor a green card on a TN, it is just riskier since it's not a dual intent visa.

You can also apply for H-1B and if you get that then you can just switch to it then apply for a green card.

Would that be the same for Germans?

No sorry, the TN is only available to Canadians and Mexicans. It's based on NAFTA. https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/nafta.h...

You have to immigrate like all the other immigrants, but since you are German, the permanent resident quota is barely used for your nationality. The USA creates a quota system for green cards and then splits them up on a nationality basis. India, China and the Philippines have a long lineup for visas.

The USA creates a quota/lineup system on a per country basis.

You have 3 basic options:

1. Work at a European office for a year, transfer on an L visa, apply for a green card once your in the USA.

2. Apply for an H1-B around march/april, see if you made the lottery, get your visa in october, apply for a green card once your in the usa.

3. Work at a European office for X years, apply for a green card outside of the USA, starting immediately while your working there, wait until you get a green card, move to the USA. It took about a 1 year to 1.5 years for a former coworker to do it this way.

O-1 & E visas are too special case to think about for the most part. And there is always getting married to a US citizen.

#3 is an interesting option that I hadn't heard of until now. Would this option be available to remote workers? Or is it reserved only for those working with companies that have a physical office in their country as well as the US?

Actually you don't have to be working for the company at all for #3. I think he wasn't working for the company until his green card came through.

Basically it's like applying for a green card normally, except your out of the country and you get the visa with "consular processing". I'm not sure if you can work remotely for the company or not while the green card process is happening.

I think most employers don't want to do it although because your not working for them while it's processing. With a dual intent visa you can work for the company while the green card is processing and your in the US office.

This outlines it: http://www.path2usa.com/employment-based-green-card

*Note: I know technically employers apply for you, not you yourself independently. It's just easier to write it that way.

One can't apply for H1-B. A company on your behalf has to do that. And I never heard of option 3. Do you have a link for that?

O1 is a fairly common visa type for startup founders

Are any of these options available to people without a degree?

TN status/visa can be obtained without a degree but it is a little less straightforward and has a higher chance of denial.

TN visas aren't dual purpose so when it comes to staying permanently Canadians are on the backlog with the rest of the world.

Do you think there'll be opportunities to start terrific technology companies in Toronto ~5-10 years down the line, when "everyone moves back"? Especially if they pay better?

There's always the opportunity. You could start a terrific technology company in Toronto (and stay there) right now, but you'd be an outlier. That said, I think it'll only take a few high-visibility 'anchor' companies to seed the city and start pulling people back in. And that could very reasonably happen in the next 5-10 years.

Is the ratio of compensation really 2-3x?

One datapoint: Senior Dev (say Level 1 Senior) base pay is $100k. So are you saying SF will pay this person at least $200k?

Yes, seniors usually get more than 250k at established companies. Provided you can make it in as a senior.

Yes. Junior dev base pay in SF is 100k. I know junior devs here making 130k. Add RSUs, factor in the exchange rate... the multiplier is easily 2-3x.

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