Google Street View banned in India due to security concerns | Hacker News Reader

Google Street View banned in India due to security concerns

telegraph.co.uk

95 pointseplanit73 comments

The real reason for this ban is corrupt politicians who are embarrassed by the terrible infrastructure and condition of their communities, who rather than acting to fix the issues, take bribes and eat away at the money allocated to facilitate growth in their communities. This is a common problem in India. Just this week a movie depicting the huge drug problem in the state of Punjab was banned and requested by the censor board to change the name of the locations in the movie so that it doesn't target the state directly. Complete BS by politicians trying to cover their own asses.

This is correct, being able to see the actual conditions would embarrass them.

Which movie is that? I'd like to see it now.

It's called "Udta Punjab" (or "Flying Punjab", if my translation is correct)

Udta Punjab (Literal trans: Flying Punjab or somewhat less literally, High Punjab)

All better critical movies get a certification slap. The certification is a pure censorship instrument.

"Ram-leela" was pressured to change its title, to get an U/A rating eventually. A too modern interpretation of their sacred Hindu mythos. "Kaum de Heere" was too positive about the Indira Gandhi assassination. "Madras Cafe" got an U/A. About the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi. "Shahid" got an A. A biopic on a human rights activist and advocate, with no violent scenes. "Dil Se" got an A. One of the classics of indian political movies.

All can be recommended.

This was my initial reaction as well. They don't want the world seeing the absolutely appalling, vile condition of its infrastructure and large portion of its population.

The problem is not with politicians but with the laws. Government can ban a book if some group threatens to stir violence in response, ditto goes with movies too. The Censor board has the power to suggest cuts just because the Censor Board people think certain portion is "immoral" etc. In that sense I don't think the board is corrupt. They are exercising the power they have.

Indians don't have freedom of speech and right to property. Ironically first amendment to Indian constitution made the "right to speech" subservient to law. For example: You are free to say whatever you want as long as it is not violating some existing law.

The solution here is that the common Indians need to learn a thing or two about what liberty means and recognize that the current constitution and law they are using to govern are exactly same as the British colonial masters.

Since the liberalization in 1991, which basically increased economic freedom only a little bit has resulted into phenomenal growth. I only wish India could liberalize more and get more liberty protecting laws.

That would probably be made easier if Hindus and Muslims didn't make Govt impose Section 144 every time someone says something about Ram Setu or Shivaji or Prophet Muhammad.

Shoot dead few rioters once and people learn their lesson. We need a government that enforce the law on the books. We havent seen any riots post Guj. in Guj. have we ?

'Udta Punjab' is not "banned" anywhere. CBFC asked them to make a huge number of cuts including those you mention in order to get an 'A' certificate. The producers took them to court and have so far only conceded one cut: depicting the rock star protagonist high and pissing on the audience during a concert. The Bombay High Court has slammed the CBFC (aka 'censor' board) for overreaching reminding them that censorship is not part of their mandate. The official verdict is on Monday but so far it looks like the movie will be passed with no other cuts. Also, there is an appellate tribunal in the CBFC which reverses its decisions on specific cuts for the most part but they weren't invoked in this case because of the shortage of time.

So yes, the CBFC did probably do what they did under political pressure but the politicians don't control everything in the end.

Fair enough, though it has required the film makers to push back a considerable amount to cause the CBFC to backdown slightly and get reasonable action from the Bombay high court.

The fact that politicians can even take this step for censorship demonstrates a weakness in the freedom of speech that citizens of India have.

For sure freedom of speech is limited in India, but again the CBFC does not officially defer to political will. That's only on paper of course, as the CBFC head is a political appointee. I wouldn't be surprised if he's asked to step down after this row.

On other note, "Udta Punjab" may be the first movie to receive A/C (adult with caution) certification as recommended by Shyam Benegal Committee.

Source : http://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/udt...

The article does not seem to say however that A/C may be applicable to Udta Punjab.

And A/C is a ridiculous idea: if Benegal actually proposed this I think I've lost a great deal of respect for him. "Only to be screened in red-light areas". Ridiculous.

It's quite ridiculous. In 1997, my parents brought a telescope to India. The Indian customs claimed my parents would "spy on Indian satellites" and never released it. As a young astronomy fan, this made me particularly sad.

In 2013, I went backpacking with a GPS in the himalayas. I was stopped by a park ranger who searched my bag, and claimed that a GPS can be used for 'terrorism'. He took away my ID (but luckily not my GPS), and I could only pick it up when I left the park 3 days later.

Later on the trip, I witnessed incredible amounts of pollution generated by the armed forces in the border regions. Not to mention the consistent human rights violations perpetrated by the Indian Army in Kashmir, all in support of "security".

I don't want to go on a long political rant against the Indian defense system, but I really wish my childhood telescope wasn't stolen.

> I don't want to go on a long political rant against the Indian defense system, but I really wish my childhood telescope wasn't stolen.

That may be the saddest, most humble thing I've ever read on the internet. Apologies for all the missed years of stargazing to your younger self.

> all the missed years of stargazing

Thanks! I stargazed nevertheless with a pair of binoculars. It's tough (but sadly possible) to prevent people from doing things they really want.

I am pretty sure the childhood telescope was then found at some custom officer's home.

My friends father used to work in customs, my friend used get all American goodies (clothes, shoes, toys etc) at his place. This was in the early 90s.

I bet they still do. I have lost a lot of things to customs, including a camera and a pair of shoes. They conveniently stuffed the package with magazines. I even had to pay exorbitant customs duty (even though it was declared as a gift) on the camera when it was delivered only to find it had been replaced with some magazines.

I think this is plain stupid. We had an amateur astronomer in our apartment, who, I am assuming now, bought his telescope in India. This is around the same time you've mentioned ~ 2000ish. If their sale here is not prohibited, it makes no sense for customs to seize it.

If all it takes is google street view to penetrate your security infrastructure then its not the fault of a bunch of images.

Google Street View would provide tremendous value to the average person in India - just like it has in so many other countries - the govt again rather be lazy then invest. Shame.

"security concerns".

India has been learning from how developed countries deal with pushing down an unpopular piece of legislation.

Street view would decimate long held views about India. Posh localities would have slums nestled in a couple of streets as they form the workforce (drivers, maids, street vendors, etc) of those localities.

Not to mention display their corruption for the entire world to see. Sanctioned repairs are sometimes covered up and potholes covered with sand and water(!). Or how public land is discreetly and illegally converted into a lot to be sold off to the highest bidder or a relative of some minister.

As usual a Stupid and Kneejerk reaction - BAN IT. No efforts at balancing security concerns with convenience for regular citizens. If you think this is strange try to photograph a few Court Houses or colonial era ministry building in New Delhi - see how quickly the cops get on your case.

"Satanic Verses" hurts religious sentiments - BAN IT (never mind the freedom of expression debate).

Couple of Files on very popular file sharing sites violate copyrights - SHUT IT DOWN (never mind the convenience).

Plastic Bags causing pollution - BAN IT (never mind the convenience or the fact that no one enforces it).

Alcohol Addiction is a problem in some states - BAN IT (never mind that the so called "dry states" of India have some of the highest alcohol consumption rates).

and so on....

So in India BAN IT is a very popular Judicial/Legislative response.

Paper bag laws are enforced where I am, at least the store cashiers always make sure to charge you $0.10 for each one that you get. Don't think we have the option for plastic at all. What do you propose is a better solution for plastic bag pollution?

The Indian gov's approach to leadership derives from the aphorism that leadership and decision making manifest as inconvenience. If you're not being inconvenient, you're not doing your job.

Look at the legions of people in charge who have the exact same world-view as a prep-school headmaster - dealing with all issues by administering the cane first and only then applying thought.

Hahahahahaha, I wish it wasn't but it's so true. It's not the politicians though,it's the beaurocracy. They want to be as much trouble as they can.

The article contains conflicting reports, one official says Streetview is banned, another says it isn't, but should really have concentrated more on the bigger problem: the Geospatial Information Regulation Bill. That's so vaguely worded it bans any geotagged photographs going on line without a 3 month license application process and fees. It has the potential to stop all online mapping efforts in India.

More details here http://savethemap.in/

They probably didn't want the world to see people openly defecating on the streets.

Google was planning on to get major cities and tourist attractions on street view and open defecation doesn't happen there. How about not commenting dumb things here?

Edit: To add, Indian govt is working to get all villages in India better santization facilities.

I'm Indian and know very well that open defecation is still common in the major cities. Stop putting a spin on it and admit it that we have a problem.

Then you and I have a different view about what all major cities are! There's no shying away from the problem if there's one and as i said, it's common in the country side.

Not sure what your definition of major cities is. But I've seen it often enough in Delhi suburbs, Mumbai and Kolkata. Not even going to start on towns and cities in UP, Bihar and Gujarat (my home state). About the only place I haven't seen it is towns in the North-East.

> But I've seen it often enough in Delhi suburbs

That's not city and Google doesn't plan to go beyond the major parts of the city for now.

That is bullshit. It is very common in major cities. Unless you consider Mumbai country side, take a train ride through the city.

Where the hell are you going to openly defecate in major cities with all the traffic?

Near the train tracks, there are usually couple of tracks which are not used by trains.

There are many areas in Mumbai where traffic is less specially in the early morning. So you can do it on the road.

Just below the water line at the beach, unfortunately.

I just spent 2 months in a major 2nd-tier Indian city, going out almost daily. Didn't see someone defecating openly even once. Take it FWIW.

It's not as common as some people think but I have seen it occur in Victoria Park in Bangalore.

It's more common than some people think in America I have seen it occur near a park in San Francisco.

Ditto the side of our old condo in Philadelphia.

Edit: goddam shame. I for one know having to go isn't always a "when it's convenient" situation, and people not having access to facilities is terrible.

To my knowledge, that's almost exclusively a San Franciscism.

Hell, I saw a woman doing it behind a rock in Central Park a few weeks ago near the bird sanctuary while her friend kept watch.

>Indian govt is working to get all villages better sanitation facilities.

Exactly. The privileged here don't understand that this is being actively worked on in India. We will be a superpower within the next 10 years and will be defecating in the loo well before then.

Having a working toilet doesn't make you more valuable Americans.

My comment above is being downvoted crazily and wanted to tell that I'm quite surprised and disappointed to see so many people think that the petty reason mentioned above is the actual one to ban Google street view. SMH.

Does no one else remember the Take The Poo to the Loo video UNICEF produced to target this problem in India? It seems like if they have to go that far, it's a major problem. https://youtu.be/_peUxE_BKcU

This video is a colossal waste of money by UNICEF.

Reasons?

1. Most people in India who defecate in the open don't understand English. A lot of them probably don't have a television, or a permanent home for that matter. Homelessness in India is a real problem that receives zero attention from, well, everybody. Tens of thousands of people have migrated from the rural areas to cities in search of homes, and end up living in shacks with no running water or proper plumbing.

2. The open defecation is a direct holdover from cultural aspects several hundred years old (defecate far away from your home, who wants that shit in here?) that have an uneasy coexistence with modern western-style toilets that are located inside one's home. This subject has to be broached with careful scientific explanations and benefit analyses, not a ham-fisted cartoon that treats people like idiots saying "Hey there is poo everywhere! Take it to the loo!"

> A lot of them probably don't have a television

They can still watch it on their mobile.

Ironically, day to day I see more people openly defecating on the streets of downtown San Francisco than I saw when I lived in Mumbai. That said, this says more about SF than India(where open defecation is indeed rampant.)

Indian Laws are bonkers and any government servants and pervasive powers.

Here is my favorite Indian Law.

Right to Education Law (Indeed who does not want Education and Baby Pandas as rights ?)

Features:

1. The law is applicable only to Hindu run schools. Aided or Unaided. The law has blanket exemption to any school run by a Christian or Muslim. (Aided or Unaided).

2. All private schools even those who do not take a penny from government must keep 25% of their seats reserved to the "needy".

Needy is defined by government and the list is defined by government. This is often a function of caste and bribes offered to government to get your kid's name on the right list.

3. Government will decide all the admission criteria as and when it pleases for these private schools. So if you want to start a school that will cater only to say "IQ > 140" that is illegal Or a school that would focus on children with great artistic ability that is illegal.

4. All private schools must meet various criteria such as "X area per child" else they will have to shut down.

5. It is a criminal offense to run a school that is not approved by this law.

Coming up with a dark and horrible regulation would only reduce school supply. Secondly, applying it only to "Hindu" run schools is like handicapping a the majority community in one particular sector. All this when Indian's private education was expanding rapidly, performing better than government's free education and was actually targeting more and more poor people than ever.

Here's the full text [1] of the law. See if you can find the word "Hindu" in it anywhere.

Also, the other 4 points you mention are also factually incorrect.

[1] http://eoc.du.ac.in/RTE%20-%20notified.pdf

No. The word used is Minority/Non-Minority. Minority definition is derived from another body "National Council for Minority Education" which by definition can not have a Hindu on its board.

All points are completely accurate as since I am involved in some of the court cases.

Here is an excellent summary by someone who has been fighting against the law for over 5 years:

http://swarajyamag.com/ideas/how-sonias-upa-communalised-ind...

In Israel "sensitive installations" don't have Street View around them. For example, try searching for "Mahane Rabin (HaKirya)" and you'll see that the surrounding roads do no have Street View enabled. To me, that is sufficient evidence that "security concerns" are not the real reason for the ban.

Indian bureaucrats have lot of power and everything is banned by default in India. In past I was harassed by police for trying to film buildings from public roads.

In my home district the collector (Colonial era post of a county administrator who also has quasi-judicial powers) has banned the Drones. Reason? Well government does not like it. You cant do much here.

The problem is not of the government but of people who all grease up and bend over every-time government asks them to bend over. The "ban" mentality is unimaginably pervasive.

India's Prime Minister created this portal http://mygov.in where people can give suggestions to the central (federal) government. Last time I did a study around 80% of them were about either banning something or using coercive power of government to benefit some special interest group.

Sometimes a divided country is better than a hopeless one;

1 billion Upper caste/Backward caste/Scheduled caste/Scheduled tribe Communities in India HATE each other for the past ~2000 years;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_politics

They should live in separate countries;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...

A blanket ban to protect a few defense installations seems like an overreaction. They do mention that monitoring it after launch would be impossible, but mistakes can discouraged by imposing large fines or something similar to that.

That's not cool, even here in México we have that, but then again politcians in méxico are so fucking retarded that they may not even know what google street view is.

At least in Germany they got the reason right.

Which one is that? Because Austria also has no Street View and the reasons for it are ridiculous.

As far as I understand it Google thought it was too much trouble to comply with the 'remove my house from streetview' requests that came in and were found to be legal and so they killed streetview in protest. I guess they figured that the rest of the Germans would make a fuss if they pulled out but that didn't happen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/google/comments/1fzygw/why_is_there...

Privacy is an excellent reason why things like streetview should be opt-in rather than opt-out but even opt-out was too much work for Google.

I feel the govt should figure out a way to allow Google to get the cities on street view. Tens of incidents happened which costed thousands of lives and so understand the apprehension of the security authorities. But they just have to come up with better measures to ensure safety of the citizens.

This thread seems like a release valve for all the pent-up anger against the government & its policies. On the bright side, we are all on the same page. Any ideas on how we can channel this into something constructive to take a step towards fixing the system ?

In India, if the law specifically does not allow a particular activity, it may as well be banned. This is completely opposite to the sane behavior which would be that citizens are free to do anything but specifically forbidden things.

We don't have it here in China either, but we have a homegrown domestic equivalent. Let's hope India builds one of their own! The world is better off with heterogeneity.

Competition is good. But banning the better player is not the way. That would be just feeding crony companies and forcing bad products to consumers with the mask of security.

If the history of industrialized nations is anything to look up, protectionism is a pretty fantastic way to jump-start a capital-intensive industry.

Now, once you have a world-class industry, complaining about foreign protectionism is also a pretty fantastic way of preventing other countries from developing theirs.

This is an article from '92, but it's quite relevant today.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1993/12/how-the-...

Google become what it is because of protectionism? Protectionism slows down everything and gives pain to the consumers. You are better off without it.

No, it was a first mover, with what was in hindsight an obvious innovation.

When you're a second mover, though, protectionism is absolutely necessary. Observe American heavy industry during the 19th century, the two Japanese economic miracles, any of the Asian Tiger economies, German auto firms...

If your goal is to grow a domestic industry against powerful established players, you should absolutely not optimize what is good for consumers.

Wonobo (http://places.wonobo.com/) seems to be doing this in India. Although, their site seems to be pretty slow at the moment.

Indian bureaucracy and politicians are nothing but first class suckers. They loot away anything and everything.

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