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Comment by zeveb | Hacker News Reader

It really makes me sad that CSV even exists: ASCII defines field ('unit') & record separator characters (also group & file, but those are less-useful), as well as an escape character. With those few characters, all of the mess of CSV encoding could be solved with these few rules:

    - all records are separated by an RS character (#x1e)
    - all fields within a file are separated by a US character (#x1f)
    - all instances of RS, US & ESC within a field are prefixed with an ESC (#x1b)
    - there are no more rules

It's remarkable to me that ASCII defines a pretty full-featured mechanism for information interchange (start of header, file transfer &c.) and instead we continue to build mechanisms atop its alphabetic characters.

It's like the original sin of computing is Not Invented Here (no doubt someone will pipe up with a story of how ASCII itself was the product of NIH!).

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I used to religiously believe in this, but in practice it isn't useful. The whole point is to be roughly human-readable and using non-printing characters defeats that. You can't even easily enter these things via the command line.

If we're abandoning human-readability, why even bother with ASCII? Just use a binary format. Has anyone actually used ASCII unit and record separator delimiters successfully? I'd be curious about what advantages they had over a binary format, even just a protobuf or Thrift serialized form. If we want to preserve schemalessness, there's stuff like Sereal.

> The whole point is to be roughly human-readable and using non-printing characters defeats that.

You're assuming that separator characters are not human-readable. If ASCII had been used as originally intended, they'd be just as readable as line breaks. Err, carriage returns.

Computing depresses me some days …

Most people build systems to work in the world we have, not the world we wish we had.

There are all sorts of examples like this. UNIX was initially designed to work with pipes of line-oriented streams, so why did we get scripting languages where every UNIX command is reinvented as a function call or RPC frameworks where the pipe is replaced by a binary message? PHP was initially a templating language, so why did we get Smarty, Wordpress, and PEAR templates? The web was supposed to come with full support for editing & creating pages via WYSIWYG editor and have a built in mechanism (hyperlinks) for associating pages with other people, so why did we need Facebook to introduce the idea of "sharing content with other people".

In each case, there were real, pragmatic reasons that people invented new systems instead of doing what they were "supposed" to do. Line-oriented files are clumsy for representing hierarchical data or conditionals. PHP is too hard to use for most end-users, despite being built for pragmatic "just toss a webpage up" use. The editing features in the web disappeared early on, with Netscape, and they needed the critical mass of college students that Facebook provided before people felt they had an audience for anything they did.

The moral for system designers is that you can't just throw a feature out there and say "Use this." You have to adapt it to how people actually do use it, even if that usage seems brain-dead to you.

> Has anyone actually used ASCII unit and record separator delimiters successfully?

At my first job, the (proprietary) database server we used had a communication protocol that used the ASCII STX/ETX/EOT/ACK/ETB/GS/RS/US characters. When I looked up those ASCII codes I was like "Oh, that's clever", but in practice, it was just another proprietary binary format, and had all the problems of proprietary binary formats. The control codes still needed to be escaped in source code; they still weren't visible in log files or when viewing console output. They were basically just bytes we had to send to implement the protocol.

One of the problems with this mechanism is data entry. It requires specialized software to insert an RS character instead of a newline ('\n') when going to the next row, for example.

After it has been saved in that format, it is a text file consisting of one very long line (unless some of the fields have newlines, but that doesn't represent the actual structure). This makes it inconvenient to browse with a text editor or pager. Sure, you could have a special mode to make them show up as newlines, but then you can't tell the difference between real newlines and newlines inserted for convenience.

Consequently, Unix text-processing tools like cut, sed, and awk use a line feed ('\n') as a record delimiter, unless there is a special reason not to (e.g. the -print0 flag on find).

Related discussion here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7474600

I regularly use non-printable ASCII characters as delimiters. I just confirm first that they are not in the input. I am going to start using the ones you mentioned. This solution is one I rarely if ever see used. The other solution which I have seen in practice is to encode the comma character. The problem really IMO is that people who make CSV place no limits on what range of characters is stored in the tables. Certain characters can safely be removed. In most cases the input is still comprehensible without commas. Commas can be deleted, freeing up their use exclusively as record separators.

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