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Comment by throwaway293810 | Hacker News Reader

Well, it's cultural, undoubtedly. Many couples just do it that way because that's "how it's done" without really thinking about it. But as far as I've seen/heard there is also significant social cost to stay-at-home dads. They're alternately demonized, ignored, assumed incompetent, assumed less worthy for not financially supporting the family, or just not accommodated in a thousand other ways. That's what we (society) should challenge and change, IMHO. It would be a huge win for women and for men alike.

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>Many couples just do it that way because that's "how it's done" without really thinking about it

My hunch is that you don't actually know any women in tech who have decided to take a leave from their careers (either temporarily or permanently) in order to raise their children, and your handle + the fact that you just made that account makes me think you're a troll.

Many (most?) mothers suffer if they can't be around their young children. That's not to say that fathers don't either, but who do you think typically wins out in an argument if it comes down to deciding which parent keeps working and which handles childrearing?

You're pushing a narrative that suggests that being responsible for childrearing is a burden and a sacrifice, and that the argument is "who gets to keep their career" and not "who gets to raise the kid(s)". Most parents/couples absolutely do not see it that way, and I really do believe that, if given the choice, both fathers and mothers would overwhelmingly choose to be the stay-at-home parent. The ones that actually wanted kids, that is.

Well, no, I don't think it's a burden and a sacrifice to take care of kids. From what I hear it's one of the most rewarding things in life, and I look forward to it (I'm in my late 20s and am thinking about having kids ten or so years from now). This is more in the context of career breaks, i.e., the current HN thread - in that context, taking time off a career is a burden.

I actually do know a few couples who've had long discussions about staying home. "Not really thinking about it" is a bit harsh, I admit, and I'll back off a bit there; but certainly the cultural bias leads to a default assumption, which people seem not to notice sometimes, i.e., the discussion framed as whether the mother should stay home, not who should stay home. For the couples I'm aware of, the father continuing to work was not in question.

I do think your implication that mothers may care more about kids than fathers do ("that's not to say that fathers don't either, but who do you think wins...") is a little disappointing. It's part of the cultural bias that I am trying to fight against here.

And finally, please don't call me a troll just because I have different ideas and opinions than you do. I'm trying to have a good-faith conversation and I care a lot about this issue. (Yes, I'm using a throwaway because any sort of gender politics discussion is politically dangerous. I hope my points are not dismissed as a result.)

There is a huge cultural push for women to leave the workforce after having a kid, which you don't even really appreciate until you try to swim against the tide.

After law school, my wife and I pursued the best jobs we could find, which left us working about 120 miles apart. We also had a baby. There was enormous pressure on her to make a career sacrifice to come work where I did, none for me to do the same. Even when there wasn't active headwind, just the total lack of support and encouragement was demoralizing and might have caused a less obstinate woman to just give in.

What kind of pressure was there? You, her family, your family, friends, coworkers, ...? Were they only saying that she should make the sacrifice (easy to ignore), or was she e.g. not promoted because of it (hard to ignore)?

I would argue the exact opposite applies to many people:

I couldn't care less about promotions (An additional $40,000? It doesn't affect my happiness in any way). If I want extra responsibilities for the challenge, I can usually engineer my roles and projects to do them without moving up the org-chart.

On the other hand, all your family and friends judging you, raising eyebrows, making you feel like a bad mother ... that one is harder to ignore.

Hm... I guess my logic would be, if they don't agree (or at least try to understand) my choices/reasons/morality, then they're not real friends!

Strongly disagree, and I say that as a parent who loves his child. Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor, and leaving the workforce to do it leaves many women in precarious financial and social positions as a consequence. I know a middle-aged woman who left her job as a hospital exec to be a stay at home mom. Now the kids are grown, she's bored out of her mind, she's ineligible for any career that would challenge her, and resents being financially dependent on her husband. I probably know more women in that position than the other way around, between family and friends. It's particularly challenging when marriages don't work out later in life, which is common.

And saying that you should be happy staying home if you really want kids is a crock. You can love your kids without desiring to restructure your whole life around them. And as a society we should be skeptical of glorifying parenthood to the point of encouraging people to structure their lives around their kids.

> Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor

I don't see how raising a human can be classified as unfulfilling. Is making a CRUD app really more fulfilling than raising a child to a happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult? That seems an order of magnitude more fulfilling.

As for the ex-exec who's now bored, that can also be seen as a symptom of "career worship" that projects such as the OP seem to focus on. There's a lot you can do with your time so you don't end up bored. Learn to cook, sew, program for fun, read, write...

It seems like the #1 problem is that people are basing their identities on their career and then finding themselves lost when they end that career to raise a family. Even worse they are resenting the children and partner because they're not on the career track anymore.

A career is a burden not a privilege. People would be a lot happier if they saw through the marketing hype and realized that.

Just out of curiosity, what is the largest # of consecutive hours you have been responsible for a young child? I love my son and watching him progress over the last 11 months has been amazing but the day-to-day of raising a child can be mind numbingly boring.

I know it's boring and very, very hard work. Which is why I believe that we should support stay at home moms (and dads) by elevating the position in society and recognizing the hard and rewarding work it is. Going back to a career and paying someone to take care of your child is quite frankly the easy way out.

Women leaving the workplace to raise kids should be seen as a victory, not a "problem" that needs to be fixed. It's definitely not easy though and all of this media broadcast negativity surrounding being a parent instead of having a career can't make it any easier.

You didn't answer his question. Can you?

It doesn't matter what my background is. My argument stands on its own.

> I know it's boring and very, very hard work

So you're now agreeing with 'unfulfilling manual labor'?

hard != unfulfilling. The result is very fulfilling. It's really telling that raising a child being fulfilling is even up for debate.

That's the debate only in your own mind. You've completely failed to grasp the not-so-nuanced context. He's not talking about the raising of the child, but the meaningless, but necessary, work that goes with it.

Watching my kid succeed at something that I've helped her to learn is very fulfilling. But no matter how much you protest, being a stay-at-home dad was filled with thankless, unfulfilling tasks. I gagged -every- -single- -time- I changed my kid's diapers. The "result" of changing those diapers? Another filled diaper.

No matter how much of a rock star she is and becomes, changing diapers wasn't, isn't, and will never be a fulfilling task. And parenting is absolutely filled with similar tasks.

> The "result" of changing those diapers? Another filled diaper.

I am so looking forward to my kid being toilet trained.

I don't understand how you can divorce the hard work that goes into raising a child with the end result of that hard work. When you're changing diapers, do you really not think that you're helping your baby be healthy? That's not rewarding?

I know I said in another comment that my background doesn't matter but believe it or not, I'm actually a dad. Yeah, stuff is tough, boring... but I always think that it's worth it because I'm happy being a good dad.

The "result" of changing a diaper is that your kid isn't sitting around in their own waste. You can take some pride in making that happen IMO.

Also, gagging while changing diapers is a bit weak. You're not really making the case that men are more suited to be stay at home parents :P (jk)

hard != unfulfilling.

I agree. I was going for boring ≈ unfulfilling.

I don't think anyone was talking about whether raising a child is fulfilling or not, rather it was that the process often involves unfulfilling manual labor.

Two very different things and you're conflating discussion of latter with the former.

Raising a child is nothing but the process. All those long nights, boring days when they're infants... it's all hard work for a good cause. That it's difficult makes it even more rewarding.

What do you think happens when your kids reach school age? You can kid yourself that changing diapers is part of some noble struggle (it is not), but there's no way to fool yourself during the 7 hours you'll spend waiting for them to get back from school. And, as they get older, those 7 hours become 9, sometimes 12, as they join clubs and go hang out with friends.

I'll stand by my statement that the hard work you put in when raising an infant is rewarding. Just as cutting firewood to stay warm in the winter would be, but I digress...

When they go to school is when the stay at home parent has time to indulge in their actual interests. By that time, if one partner is working and the other is SAH, the finances should be pretty stable so the at home partner should be able to enjoy their free time a bit.

I still maintain that a huge part of the problem is that people tie their identity to a career. When the child goes to school, the at home partner should not just sit around watching tv and getting existentially miserable. They should start working on their interests. It's really a valuable opportunity and a bit of a pay off for all the hard work they did when the child was an infant.

Cutting firewood to stay warm in the winter is practically the definition of pointless unfulfilling labor.

I think we have very different definitions of unfulfilling. Doing something hard to stay alive is the definition of fulfilling in my book. What does fulfillment mean to you? The task in and of itself has to be rewarding? I'm purely judging by the outcome of the task and not how difficult the task itself is.

This is a definition of "fulfilling" that captures "subsistence farming".

Which many would consider fulfilling :) c.f. any farming commune.

c.f. impoverished rural Asia and Africa.

A lot of unfulfilling labor becomes "fulfilling" when you have the luxury of picking it up and putting it down whenever you'd like.

> Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor

As opposed to a job, which is often hard unfulfilling mental labor?

> Many couples just do it that way because that's "how it's done" without really thinking about it.

Are you sure about that? Have you asked them? No one that I know makes these decisions just because that's "how it's done," although I can imagine that might be how it looks from the outside.

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