3D printing produces a curious lightweight motorcycle | Hacker News Reader

3D printing produces a curious lightweight motorcycle

economist.com

76 pointsedward64 comments

Interestingly, this is using mostly bicycle (mountain-bike) components not traditional motorcycle parts.

From the photos I can identify at least these as mtb/bicycle parts:

    - front suspension forks
    - disk brakes
    - rear shock
    - handlebars
    - tires

So basically this is a heavy electric bicycle with no pedals to push when the battery runs out.

The frame looks great though! Might have applications in other forms.

edit: By looking closely at the videos on their website you can see weld marks that show the frame was probably 3d printed in sections and then welded together.

This is how motorcycles began; strapping motors to bicycles. It's fun to see them circling back to their roots once more.

No, motorcycles has their own history: http://www.wired.com/2011/08/0830daimler-first-true-motorcyc...

Mopeds are "bicycles with a motor": https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/68/8a/8b/688a8b384... .

(Can´t edit top comment anymore)

Meanwhile I was curious about the tires and noticed that it has different front and back tires Turns out neither is built for speed, one is a cruiser bike tire, the other is a fat bike tire.

[Back tire] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ee8ba9_3c48823dff9e4cdaad...

Vee Rubber Vee Mission Fat Bike Folding Tyre

This is a Fat Bike tire (A mountain bike "type" that went mainstream in the last few years. where the proposition is to have a bike with extremely large diameter tires (for mtb standards) to roll over obstacles or to "float" on top of sand/loose gravel/snow (well for snow use it already existed for a long time, but was quite a niche thing)

back tire more info: http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/TYVEVMFB/vee-rubber-vee-mission-...

[Front tire] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ee8ba9_7a508f9284164dddbf...

This looks like a cruiser/low rider tire

front tire more info: http://www.feltbicycles.com/USA/2016/Parts/Cruiser/Tires-Tub...

http://www.classic-cycle.de/en/Tires-Tubes-Parts/Berm-Master...

>> This is a Fat Bike tire (A mountain bike "type" that went mainstream in the last few years.

As you point out, the tire has a very specific use. I see these everywhere now and its clear it has become a some kind of fashion trend now. I see people out riding them on city streets all over my city - makes no sense to me really.

It's like how everyone was building fixies and single speeds for a while. And then it as 29ers (and 29er single speeds of course).

They make no sense for 99% of the people I see biking with them too.

When I see these when I'm out biking, all I can think of is "Man, the rolling resistance on that bike must be immense." I live in the Midwest so we can get some snow but funny enough, I never see those bikes out in it. Also, it's flat as heck here and there's no trail biking to speak of.

It could make a sort of perverted sense in one way. Since the tyre will create so much drag, it will make the cycling harder. So it makes for tougher exercise, thus burning more calories and building bigger leg muscles :-)

Not a motorcycle. This is an electric bicycle. Forgetting the weight of the bike, that front brake isn't enough to properly handle the mass of a rider panic-braking at 100kph.

Also, look into modern Japanese motorcycle design. Their frames are much less than 6kg. Many don't have anything worthy of being called a frame. The rear swing arm is bolted to the engine block, with the only load-bearing structure being between that and the triple clamp (The bit where the front forks attach).

These are proper electric motorcycles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_Zero

And here is what they can do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlxZs2-gICc

Bicycle is powered by human muscles only. Bicycle with a motor is called moped: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/68/8a/8b/688a8b384... .

I'd say that bicycle means only two-wheeled, as opposed to tricycles and quads. Mopeds legally need pedals, which this does not have. Bicycles do not need pedals as various types don't have them. (I see kids at the beach every day on small bikes without pedals.) So without pedals it isn't a moped. And without any of the equipment to make it a street worthy or even a legal motorcycle, I call it a bicycle.

Going by a legal definition, a moped can only be a two wheeled vehicle with a displacement smaller than 50cc for gas engines and a top speed lower than 35mph. Anything else is a motorcycle, including most scooters.

Being legally registered and titled is a different matter than being simply described. I think motorcycle is exact and correct given the styling and capabilities of the bike.

But will you get a ticket for riding/parking it as a "motorcycle"? Without indicators and other regulated features, it wouldn't be allowed on the street as a motorcycle, or even a moped. I don't think it would qualify as a dirt bike for off-road either as there are many regs there too. Can you ride it in bicycle lanes? If it is anything other than a bicycle I don't see where one would be allowed to use it.

If speed of this "electric bike" will be limited to below 35km/h, it will be legally allowed to drive public roads as "moped". Otherwise, it is not allowed for public roads at all, until it will meet safety requirements for motorcycle.

If anyone here is interested in design, look into what I meant by Japanese bikes. Motorcycles, all of them, can be divided into those with integrated engines and those with engines sitting inside frames. In Japan, where the entire bike was built by the same people and was meant for export, the result was engines with parts bolted on to create a bike. There are all sorts of weight/reliability advantages in doing this. In the west, the engine was built at a different factory and sat on mounts inside the frame ... exactly like the arrangement in the OP here. So whenever you see a two-wheeled vehicle with an engine wrapped inside a larger frame, know that it was the result of a very different development process.

look into what I meant by Japanese bikes.

Do you have any links or more specific search terms?

"The big four" are Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki. This group does on occasion act together, specifically when a few years ago there was an agreement to limit bikes to 300kph in reaction to the Hayabusa and associated tech that suggested a topspeed war was about to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Hayabusa

It's a great bike. A true monster but also easy to ride, particularly for short people. So everyone knew a faster bike was on the horizon.

I was curious about the variance in the design you mentioned, reading the comment again, I got more of what you meant. So this is something unique to all Japanese bikes and has been something of a mainstay? At first read through, I mistakenly got the idea this was some new innovation. But now I get what you were saying about how these companies are vertically integrated much like Apple, so all components of the product can be more tightly integrated.

So what would you say the main advantages here are? The bike can perform better in terms of handling because all parts are designed to work most effectively with the others?

How much does the engine shape/design vary with Japanese bikes compared to bikes of other origins? Different attachment points with the engine to the other components?

Do you know of any pictures of a Japanese bike without the body shell/faring on it, or just the bare frame?

Quick Edit:

Do you have any opinion on what you think the best Japanese touring and/or dual sport bikes are?

Honda's VFR line, specifically the VFR800.

Bolting everything to the engine means lighter weight. It allows one to isolates loads/jobs. The weight of the rider on the seat is handled by a very light frame, a frame that doesn't have to deal with forces from the rear wheel shocks. And with the rear swing arm attached directly to the transmission, which is built into the engine block, nothing is wobbling around. But to do this you need a well-balanced engine. Watch any harley accelerate. It's engine is bouncing around on soft mounts.

Here is the definitive japanese sportbike, the honda CRB600. The last pic is "naked", ie without the plastic fairings and "birdcage" that holds the instrument cluster and windscreen. Look at how tightly integrated everything is. You don't normally get engineering like that in a vehicle selling for only 12k. Chances are you can pick up a slightly used one for 6k.

http://www.redline.co.za/Honda%20CBR600RR.htm

cool, thanks!

The difference between an electric bicycle and an electric motorcycle is academic these days. Take a look at this video[0]. Luke Workman, the lead battery designer at Zero Motorcycles, built an electric bike capable of out drag racing a Tesla model S P85. Taking the bike to full throttle tends to shear off the spokes in the rear wheel.

I will agree the thing in the link isn't meant to see the road. It's a pretty art project.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnGvSEcldzQ

"Not a motorcycle. This is an electric bicycle. Forgetting the weight of the bike, that front brake isn't enough to properly handle the mass of a rider panic-braking at 100kph."

I don't how someone could objectively say this is not a motorcycle. Is acceleration or braking performance how we classify whether something is a motorcycle or not? I'm sure there have been 100's of thousands of "real" motorcycles produced with worse braking than the disk brakes on this one. Old motorcycles (and cars) are notorious for having poor braking performance. I doubt a 5" single-leading-shoe front brake with 60's technology pads would do better than this. Some people put even smaller front brakes on choppers in the 60's. And certain kinds of motorcycle racing doesn't even allow brakes.

Yeah, it uses many bicycle components. But I think people underestimate the amount of abuse a downhill bicycle is designed to take. It has a double triple clamp front fork with 35mm stanchions (fork tubes). Bad landings from a big jump would put way more energy into the fork than any normal street riding. If this were supposed to be an off-road motorcycle, I could understand the concerns. But for a street bike I wouldn't be at all afraid of riding it at 100 kph.

Are there any modern motorcycles that it can outperform? Maybe not, but with it's low mass I wouldn't be too sure. And I don't think that's relevant anyways. It's a motorized two-wheeled vehicle with no pedals. There aren't too many more classification requirements one could add. And without pedals, it's certainly not a bicycle.

Less than 20% of the page is visible on kindle fire. Then a full screen advert pops up with nothing in it. Not even aclose button. I despair. Anyone got a better link?

Edit: http://www.lightrider.apworks.de/

This is interesting there is a definite niche market for small, lightweight electric commuter motorcycles. I think this motorcycle (It's not bicycle), is a good demonstration piece and a cute collectors item. But there design flaws that put this out being a production machine in it's current configuration. The components (wheels, brakes, etc) seem to be undersized for the task at hand. But considering the whole bike weights roughly 70lbs I believe it will work over all over the short term. Braking from 40mph on those brakes and forks would be interesting. Also foot pegs integrated into the frame may look good but in a low slide crash could prove catastrophic.

> Also foot pegs integrated into the frame may look good but in a low slide crash could prove catastrophic.

They also appear to have a taper to them, leading to a somewhat thin edge. My dad still has the scar from when he put a footpeg into his foot on a motorcycle when he was younger. That was from a fixed but fairly blunt footpeg. No idea the kind of damage this thing would do.

6kg for an ebike frame is not lightweight at all. Downhill mountain bike frame with traditional aluminium tubing weigh less and have to handle much greater forces.

This is not an ebike, it is an electric motorcycle. They are similar, but definitely separate classes. 13 lbs is crazy light for a motorcycle frame.

From the photos in the article it appears to be a mountain bike with a electric motor - look at the front fork, the tiny MTB disc brakes, etc.

The thing is this really isn't a motorcycle at all.

The tires are Bicycle tires (cruiser tires for one) not rated at all for the kinds of speeds they are advertising.

The front suspension while rated for MTB downhill use (which puts up with some heavy stress loads) would need to be tested for those speeds as well.

The fact that they are taking speculative pre-orders for a $56,000 product and don't even give out a parts spec on their website is very fishy.

Hopefully that picture was an early prototype. I can't imagine bicycle-grade parts passing any kind of safety inspection for a vehicle that's supposed travel at traffic speed.

Even though it is constructed from bicycle parts, this would be considered a motorcycle by legal standards in the US. Ebikes in the US generally are not allowed to exceed 20mph, but the motor in this can go well above that limit. I believe the limit is actually lower in the EU[1]. They may have to market this as a motorcycle on this fact alone.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European...

>Even though it is constructed from bicycle parts, this would be considered a motorcycle by legal standards in the US.

Without DOT approved tires, it's legal status is off-road vehicle.

It is electric moped: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped

> Strictly speaking, mopeds are driven by both an engine and by bicycle pedals

More of a scooter than a moped

> At some €50,000 ($56,000) each, it is not just the bike that is exotic but also the price.

And the buyer must have an "exotic" brain

Who would pay 160% the price of a Tesla 3 for this "aerospace-motorcycle" which is actually a lousy electric bike..

This is a prototype, a first of its kind. Of course it's going to be insanely expensive in such a limited run. It's also (hopefully) going to be refined and improved in testing, and the future generations will be cheaper and more efficient.

I also get the feeling they are limiting the top speed not due to technical limitations, but for safety reasons since it's an unproven frame. Once they work out the weak spots, they will likely increase the top speed and range, and simultaneously bring the price down to a realistic level (assuming consumer interest).

3D printing is not currently a technology that gets significantly cheaper with mass production. The assembly process would get cheaper with volume, but I suspect a lot of the cost is in that huge metallic frame component they printed.

The usual trick is to 3D print large components folded up and unfold them afterwards - I don't think that would be very feasible for a bike frame that needs to be stiff, but you never know.

> Who would pay 160% the price of a Tesla 3 for this "aerospace-motorcycle" which is actually a lousy electric bike..

Someone who already has a couple of Teslas and wants to try something a little less enclosed.

It is a technology demonstrator, it just gives a potential customer for their 3d printing services a ballpark figure for the cost.

Airbus is also a participant in a new standard for data exchange for additive manufacturing so they probably want to publicise what they can do.

While an interesting concept -

"The motorcycle is driven by a 6kW electric motor and battery. It reaches a top speed of 80kph and hits 45kph in three seconds."

Considering they're pushing this as the strongest possible, lightest possible frame - you'd think they'd focus on more impressive statistics.

> This complex and hollow structure could not have been made with anything other than a 3D printer

Eh? What about die casting? That's how we usually make complex shapes out of metal like an engine block.

Some materials scientist must have already done their thesis on this problem: optimally span two spatially separate beams with a homogeneous material transmitting some impedance designated force between them and subjected to increasing mass reduction. Given a ceramic material (strong in compression) we'll assume we end up with some sort of bone matrix [1]; a bit like we see here for this 3d printed frame. But given metals what do we observe?

[1] http://goo.gl/SdtMoc

Does anyone with an aerodynamics background know more about the holes in the frame?

How do you think about whether this frame on the bike is better for aerodynamics than a more continuous but wider surface?

Wouldn't the big human on top of it be the worst part of its aerodynamics?

That's a given in either case, though.

> whether this frame on the bike is better for aerodynamics than a more continuous but wider surface

It's certainly worse but I don't think drag is a driving design consideration for this bike. Those holes undoubtedly there to reduce material/weight...

It would be a pretty simple exercise to develop very lightweight fairings for this frame. Clearly it wasn't a consideration in this proof-of-concept design, so it doesn't make sense to consider this as anything more than a sign as to where things are going. It looks like they used topological optimization with some set of load cases analyzed through typical Finite Element Analysis codes. If they had wanted to, they could also have factored in aerodynamics in their optimization procedure, with either a shell type of approach if they wanted to make the whole thing 3D-printed metal, or with a separate fairing.

There are more photos and details on their website

http://www.lightrider.apworks.de/

So much for 3D printing being the harbinger of inexpensive, home-made objects >.<

But in any case I'm more curious about the design approach, which others are suggesting involves optimisation. Could be, I'm not sure, (could design such a thing in solidworks by hand) but I'd love to read about it. For instance I'd love to know if it takes into account wind resistance, and if so, do they use fluid mechanics simulation to test it? Is it compared with real-life wind tunnel results? The combination of 3D printing and simulation/optimisation is a really interesting avenue for future design and construction.

If you're interested in this kind of thing you might want to take a look at Autodesk Dreamcatcher.

I'm not sure which software APWorks used. They're worked with Autodesk in the past, but I wasn't able to find any information about this case. In any case, it is almost certainly topology optimization.

Disclaimer: I work at Autodesk

Looks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology_optimization

This looks like the kind of structure generated by an algorithmic solver when given a motorcycle chassis as input, mount point definitions for mountain bike pieces, and material data for their custom "Scalmalloy" material.

Kind of a weird hodge-podge, but nifty looking. :)

Anyone know which software they used for the material optimisation? solidThinking Inspire?

So the 3D printing spits out a big chunk of finished product that "could not" be made by assembling parts more conventionally.

What happens when a piece breaks? Just throw the whole thing out?

Recycle and reprint it again.

Neither the consumer nor a repair shop will have the 3D printer to do that, and it would be almost as expensive as buying a new bike anyway (after the labor).

Worse, economy of scale means that you could just buy a new frame from the manufacturer for less than making one yourself.

So in practice this option boils down to "throw the bike and/or frame out (scrapyard) and buy a new one."

Someone really should make a Giger alien mod of that, paint it back with clear resin wet look gloss on top and a xenomorph head over the headlight. It would look amazing.

Too bad the price is so high I always wanted to get a electric motorcycle and this seems like an interesting one to get.

How do I read this site with uBlock? Graylisting all requests/scripts only gave me a header and a footer.

works here with ublock origin + privacy badger

I am assuming you are using uBO in "medium mode"[1]? If so, simply locally noop-ing `static-economist.com` will allow the page to render fine.

[1] https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Blocking-mode:-medium...

Interesting. Does anyone know a more affordable electric motorcycle?

http://www.ktm.com/e-ride/

Harley Davidson has an e-motorcycle in development. I've ridden a prototype, they are quite fun. No word on when it's available for sale though.

Zero is actually a bit more reasonable(~$10k): http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

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