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Comment by NKCSS | Hacker News Reader

The best piece I've read on the subject; I agree with everything he has written and it's the stuff I've told management at many companies I've been at. I've yet to see any of them listen to me though; usually, if they don't do things the way outlined here, they just don't get it and the offered reasons will not resonate.

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I agree, I could have written the same essay myself!

Except for the last point:

> but a nice pair of jeans and any decent shirt with a collar should do just fine.

Why should there be such a requirement? Why can't people wear shorts and/or t-shirts if they want? Of course there should be some requirement (like having some kind of clothes on) but otherwise I don't think any code is necessary as long as the team is comfortable.

I understanding where you are coming from; I thought the same when I was a few years younger and was wearing t-shirts with texts like "not even Norton can protect you", "every time you download music, God kills a kitten" and "I read your e-mail". And while those are a lot of fun, it's not fun to explain to customers and have to say: "Don't mind them, they are just our developers..."

Question: Why are your customers seeing your developers?

Multiple scenarios that I've encountered.

1) company that creates custom modules for firms coal software; it always involves meeting the customer. 2) Open office layouts where customers are given a tour of the Office.

At one place, we kept suits / formal office clothes in the closet for those times. No need to make it a regular thing.

On the other hand, at one place I worked it would have been illegal for the customer to interact with us in our office space, but we still had to wear formal office clothing.

The idea that developers should be hidden from customers, like lepers, is offensive to me as a developer.

Compartmentalizing workers from each other and from customers is a means of control. Specifically management is trying to make sure that their developers do not get exposure to internal or external groups that may try to hire them away. Or give them a job if they get fired or laid off.

Consider

Case A: Customer knows you well understands you are competent. If you want to leave or are laid off that customer might eityher hire you or know someone who does. Or at least will give you a solid reference.

Compare with.

Case B: Customers and others only know you through your boss.

That's probably relevant only to the companies that work in the same field as their customers. But there's another issue that applies to all: it makes that layer of managers relevant. If they'd let the developers talk to the customers directly, they wouldn't be needed anymore.

I dunno, I am certainly not hidden from our customers; I interact with them directly, every day, over email, phone and screen-shares. But other than rare on-site visits and conferences, I don't see them face-to-face, so it doesn't much matter what type of shirt, or even any shirt at all, that I'm wearing.

If I were to meet a customer, I'd probably skip the t-shirt and shorts that day, no dress code required. But that depends on the customer, of course - with some customers, wearing a tie and suit as a developer may raise eyebrows.

I get what you say, but doesn't the fact that you'd wear something different, were you to meet customers, indicate that it might not be the best work attire? While I agree a suit should not be required, I'd say if you'd have to change your cloths to meet a client, it's probably not suited for work.

> I'd say if you'd have to change your cloths to meet a client, it's probably not suited for work.

Why? With clients you wear more formal clothes for PR purposes. It shouldn't be necessary on most dev teams (in my experience).

I'd disagree. When I am slumming it at home, I wear the most comfortable pair of trousers I have. If I'd receive a call to have a beer with pals, I'd still change.

I think the same applies in the given example: the in-group knows the guy in the shorts and T-shirt is a nice dude who helps others and is super-professional about quality. The customer, as an outsider, just sees someone who's underdressed.

How often so you have customers walking through where the developers work? I imagine this differs a lot per company (from every day to almost never).

Not to mention having to hear the same old jokes every time the customers go look at the monkeys.

First impressions. It's a subjective and sometimes faulty human practice of making judgements about the trustworthiness of people without knowing much about them. The benefit is that it requires less energy than actually getting to know the judged.

I agree, I think this was a great write up.

Unfortunately, the company I currently work for has begun adopting and exhibits many of the behaviours and poor choices this article warns against. And is actually on a path to employ more of them, quelling any objection that might come up.

Sorry, it's just frustrating watching a company make such consistent poor choices.

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