Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented | Hacker News Reader

Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented

bbc.com

101 pointseplanit80 comments

I like to think the greatest moment of my life was when I performed the heimlich on a colleague on an airplane. It took three tries but it worked. In retrospect I was surprised how calm I was. I remember thinking on the third try, "if this doesn't work, I'm yelling for a flight attendant."

What's even crazier is I was sitting in the window seat, she in the middle seat. I'm surprised it worked in such cramped circumstances.

And something amusing: the guy in the aisle seat slept through the whole thing.

Heimlich means well, but the popularity of his maneuver is due more to his relentless promotional skills, and not to sound research. If someone is choking, it's best to slap them hard on the back a few times.

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/01.05.05/heimlich-05...

That article says nothing about the Heimlich maneuver for choking. Only that you shouldn't use it on a drowning victim. Most sources seem to recommend the Heimlich maneuver for choking victims, possibly in conjunction with blows to the back between the shoulder blades, but only in cases of complete airway obstruction.

Last time I did my first aide certificate here in Australia (late 90s), if the back slapping is unsuccessful, the preferred technique was to lay them down on their side, place your hands under their armpit, flat over their ribs and try short, sharp compressions, squeezing the lungs.

Because the Heimlich technique is so well known, I remember the instructor citing the above as superior because it was less likely to break ribs or do other internal damage.

Caveat: This is in the case of complete obstruction and/or unconsciousness. If it is a partial obstruction, and you can keep the person calm enough to breathe enough, call an ambulance. All first aide is about keeping the person alive long enough for the professionals to take over, not being a hero that solves the problem yourself.

Looked up St John's and it looks like the technique has changed since then: [1] This actually sounds harder for effective compressions though, and requires more strength.

[1] http://www.stjohnambulance.com.au/docs/posters/ehs_choking_a...

I'm a doctor in Australia. The current recommendation is 5 blows to the back between the scapulae followed by 5 pushes on the sternum. Alternate until they either can breathe again or pass out.

Heimlich doesn't feature, but I can't say I wouldn't try it if nothing else was working.

> Alternate until they either can breathe again or pass out.

What do you do once they pass out?

Yes, I agree doing the Heimlich would be better than doing nothing. Just that other there seems to be other techniques that are better than Heimlich. I'll defer to your judgement though.

Looks like it's the second time he's used the maneuver: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36400365

Well that surely trumps the local source. We'll change the URL from http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/05/26/henry-heimli....

It would be amusing if there were a long history of 'first times'.

He's also kinda a crackpot: http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/09/22/the-strange-story-of-hen...

pyrotherapy is a real thing, and has been used very successfully in the treatment of the later stages of syphillis. of course, it only works because syphillis is really temperature sensitive, which isn't the case of the pathogens concerned.

reminds me of Linus Pauling's later work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling#Medical_research...

I'd go a bit further than 'crackpot' in describing someone who literally gave Malaria to people with AIDS on purpose.

It's actually not quite as crazy as it sounds. Malaria was used successfully to treat Neurosyphilis.

Just in case, here is a video explaining it again [1]. I had to look it up myself.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7CgtIgSyAiU

Personal experience that validates your life's work near the end of your life. Sir, if self actualization were a competition you would win.

No.

That would be him using technique on himself.

He still has a chance...

For all of his ups and downs on a personal level, the guy has probably indirectly (and now directly) saved a ton of lives.

No. There is no evidence to support the technique at all, and it is no longer recommended in most parts of the world.

Well, I'm an anaesthetist, and have heard this argument.

I personally did a heimlich maneuvere on a hospital inpatient who was blue and choking on a big bit of bread, and the bread came out and he turned pink again.

So from my samples size of N=1, it works 100% of the time. I would like to know the high quality randomized controlled trials which show that it doesn't?

Just like Lisa's rock. Nothing works 100% of the time, and obviously they do not use "high quality randomized controlled trials" since killing people is not ethical. Current recommendations are to begin with back blows.

Please cite, I can't find anything to support your claim.

You can't find wikipedia? Here's his son's site talking about how he is a huge fraud: http://www.medfraud.info/

The Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal_thrusts

Your site is... lol

The wiki article says what I said, that's why I asked why you were having a hard time finding it. It is not my site, it is his son's site. Try reading.

The wiki article says nothing like what you said, and don't get pissy with me, crackpot.

"According to Roger White MD of the Mayo Clinic and American Heart Association (AHA), "There was never any science here. Heimlich overpowered science all along the way with his slick tactics and intimidation, and everyone, including us at the AHA, caved in.""

Seriously, try reading.

This Mayo Clinic? The one that does recommend it?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/first-aid/first-aid-choking/basics...

Now go invent a 'perpetual motion machine' or sight a UFO and leave me alone.

Yes, that one. Seriously, read what you respond to.

I did, they recommend the Heimlich Maneuver. Edit: Don't keep quoting your crazy crackpot site, we're talking about Wikipedia and the Mayo site here. Focus

Yes, because of "Heimlich overpowered science all along the way with his slick tactics and intimidation, and everyone, including us at the AHA, caved in." Seriously, read what you reply to.

Not your silly little crackpot site, the Mayo clinic site. Now take your meds.

Your comments have repeatedly been violating the HN guidelines by being uncivil and unsubstantive. We ban accounts that do this, so please stop doing this. Instead, please (re)-read the site rules and post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

It would be nice if you could offer this service to all of your posters, equally.

That would require reading every post, which is impossible.

Understandable, then I guess you could just do it for this quote chain? Do you really want a crackpot pimping his personal site and cause? You'll just be putting out more fires with other people later, and you still won't really know why they're cropping up.

Maybe instead of just calling it a crackpot site, and attacking the commenter, you can refute the content that's been linked.

Much harder to argue against a well-reasoned response than personal attacks.

Re-read the comment thread, the person I'm "conversing" with can't even keep it straight when he's talking about Wikipedia, the Mayo Clinic site, or his special "site".

And have you actually read over his site? No offense, but my time isn't significantly less valuable than yours, so if you want to spend that kind of time, be my guest.

Wikipedia is neither mine, nor "silly little crackpot".

I can imagine his family and friends were tired of him leaping forward to take advantage of the technique at every opportunity...

- YOU'RE CHOKING??? -- No, coughing...

- YOU'RE CHOKING??? -- NO, Heimlich, I'm holding my breath... I have the hiccups....

- YOU'RE CHOKING??? -- FUCKING HEIMLICH! I'M TRYING TO TAKE A DUMP!!

It isn't a "life-saving technique", it is bunk:

"There was never any science here. Heimlich overpowered science all along the way with his slick tactics and intimidation, and everyone, including us at the AHA, caved in."

It isn't though, if you read past the first paragraph in the wikipedia history of the technique.

"The European Resuscitation Council and the Mayo Clinic recommend alternating between five back slaps and five abdominal thrusts in cases of severe airway obstructions.[1][2]"

I hardly think they'd still recommend the maneuver still if it was "bunk".

>I hardly think they'd still recommend the maneuver still if it was "bunk".

The mayo clinic doesn't recommend it any more. And your logic there makes no sense. At what point does "still" matter? It used to be recommended by more people. It has been falling out of favor as more and more organizations stop recommending it as there is no evidence to support it. The fact that a few haven't updated their guidelines yet doesn't make it supported by evidence.

Interesting, that quote lead me to the article in Cincinatti Magazine (https://books.google.com/books?id=rcMqOFGzb_oC&lpg=PA92&ots=...) which is actually a bit mixed.

Reading the article it seems the author admits that it works, and the "new way" starts with back slaps and then goes into using "abdominal thrusts" (aka "The Heimlich maneuver") But between the original published idea and this article really it says more that it might not be the most effective technique, it never says it is "bunk"

Reply on news.ycombinator.com