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Comment by shrugger | Hacker News Reader

Yeah, fuck enthusiasm! /s

I can understand that we might want to avoid the obsessive behaviors of some developers that could be considered unhealthy, but blaming a simple catch-phrase isn't going to get us anywhere.

What if the shirt said, "Coding is rad" ?

I say that all the time, and people just give me that look that says, "Ha, what a nerd" and it's fine for me because I can maintain my enthusiasm. Other people need a little bit more of a push to continue to push themselves to be the best developers that they can be.

Should developers be monks that only exist to program? No. Should developers take pride in spending their time learning and improving? Yes. Should developers be upset over a t-shirt that has no impact whatsoever on their life? No.

I hate this sort of reactionary outrage, it's more counterproductive than buying the stupid shirt is.

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It's not the shirt that bothers me, it's the fact that Google tries to create this kind of work culture internally with perks designed to keep you at work longer, and then they sell this shirt so they can profit even more from the wider developer community's passion.

I know that Google pays their developers well, and personally I am a bit of a workaholic myself devoting long hours to my company, but still there is something that I find unsettling. I wouldn't deny anyone their passion, and I wouldn't judge someone for spending all their time programming; the hair I want to split is doing so as part of a cheerleading exercise for a major corporation just feels exploitative somehow. Maybe that criticism is unfair, but Google is no stranger to handing down unfair decisions ;)

Ear, Code, Perk, Sleep, Repeat is quite a different story!

Don't they have the right? I mean, a developer that's talented enough to attract attention from Google then surely they'd be smart enough to know what constitutes working 'too much.'

I don't think Google exploits its workers anymore than they exploit themselves. If you think you've worked too much, then go home? If they ask you "hey, do you want to pull a 80-hour week this week?" why should you say anything other than: "fuuuuck no"

Going even further, it wouldn't shock me if at least a subset of Google programmers go home and -- sit down and start programming something else. If they were going to do it anyways, and Google's going to pay them their dues, hell, I'm all about it.

Eat, sleep, code, get paid, repeat.

> I mean, a developer that's talented enough to attract attention from Google then surely they'd be smart enough to know what constitutes working 'too much.'

Of course not, not at all. We all have different skillsets, and good coding ability does not mean you're good in everything else.

Which is not at all what I said. I didn't even mention coding abilities.

A developer does a lot more than just write code, but let me clarify: Anybody that's smart enough to hold a job should know when they are being asked to work too much.

I don't think knowing when you're being asked to work too much is a thing that comes automatically with whatever job skills you're hired for. Even if you work in management or HR, where having a sense of "too much work" is part of your job, you might not be objective enough to apply that expertise to yourself.

And even if you know you're working too long, you might not feel empowered to do something about it. This could be because you literally don't have the power—your employer requires everyone to work unreasonable hours—or because you lack the confidence or skills to use it.

There's a difference between enthusiasm and obsession, and I'm pretty sure there's a difference in how you object to enthusiasm vs. obsession. "John&Paul&George&Ringo." is a great T-shirt. "I spend all day in my bedroom listening to the Beatles" is saying something very different. And if there is a subculture of people who literally do the latter, to the point where it's not obvious that it's hyperbole, it's valid to object to it as "Dude, that's a bit unhealthy" -- which is a very different criticism than "The Beatles sound awful".

I understand the distinction, and you've articulated what I was trying to say. Where I think we differ is that I would argue the shirt is implying a positive, upbeat attitude. To me, that shirt says "Yeah, you rock, keep going" not "Don't come out until you're done no matter what"

What do you think of the recent spin-offs, like "Larry&Sergey&Eric&Sundar"?

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