Stop Reading "Clients from Hell" | Hacker News Reader

Stop Reading "Clients from Hell"

numerosign.com

47 pointscruise0233 comments

First off, by all means, keep reading "clients from hell". If you're just starting out, it's a great way to figure out what the red flags are when dealing with prospects. If you've been going at it for a while, it's a massive stress release to see that it's not just you.

That being said, whenever I get into discussing this, I tell about how I went to my hairdresser (a fairly outspoken man) a while back, and while he was cutting away, I asked if he could cut it a little more in the back. He replied simply with 'no' (later explaining it). I accepted that in the instant, recognizing the parallel, yet most people (web developers and non-web developers alike) think I should've forced him to cut it as I asked. Some even get angry when I suggest that my hairdresser could do anything he want (within my given requirements), because I am paying him for his expertise. Their reasoning is that because I pay them, they should do anything I tell them to. I suspect therein lies the difference between bad clients and good clients.

Well, he could have explained it differently, no? I personally would prefer (and use myself) "I can if you like, but the problem will be..."

I guess this is somewhat offtopic, but on Valentine's Day my wife and I went to a restaurant of questionable elegance -- since our first anniversary and now, we've grown far more accustomed to eating at nicer places, and wasn't sure whether this place was going to hold up to more informed scrutiny.

When ordering, I asked the waiter if I could substitute the potato gratin for something else. The waiter informed me that I could, but that I'd be making a huge mistake, as he believed that the chef's pairing with the tenderloin worked especially well.

Turns out, he was right, and my skepticism was unwarranted, but I (as you) also knew well enough when to defer to more-informed opinion of the staff.

I guess what most surprises me is that people, in general, don't. I don't know if they've developed a mistrust of people in that position, or if there is something particular to the design profession (as it is rather... abstract) that makes it harder to just accept things that don't look good to you.

Regardless, I agree with your assessment that the 'fun' being had at the clients' expense is harmless, and sanity-protecting.

I'll keep reading it.

Most of the quotes on CFH aren't simple "I want Papyrus font" snark, they're unusual scenarios where clients weasel out of paying or have ludicrous paranoia about hidden messages etc. They're not stories of typical 'roll your eyes' font choice requests, thats why its funny and popular.

The writer seems to think that Clients From Hell is a little mean and unhelpful because most clients are merely ignorant of Web design issues.

That's true, but it misses the real pain behind the stories. That is, that most Web designers don't get the respect or autonomy they deserve (or, perhaps, they don't command it.) If I get a plumber round to fix something, I'm not going to tell them what parts to use, what brand of pipes I like, or insist on them using outdated concepts. I trust them to do the work. Most people are that way.

With Web designers (and designers in general, really), people think that since they can see the surface of the finished product, they have as much insight into what works visually as the designer does. This is not true and this ignorance is very hard to work around. There are some good clients out there, but the "bad" ones are just worth ditching IMHO.

The analogy to the plumber only works if he's remodeling your entire bathroom, choosing your fixtures, the color of your tile and where the toilet goes. Generally, plumbers don't do that... but interior designers do. Likely if a web and interior designer had coffee, they'd have lots of war stories to swap. It seems like an industry hazard for anyone whose job title has the word "Design[er]" in it.

Now you've made me wonder if game designers are constantly being told to insert quicktime events and horrible inventory systems into games that were would have been fun as-is.

Spore?

Plumbers and designers aren't working with even remotely the same constraints. The fact is, Papyrus and Copperplate move bingo card software, kobe burgers, and designer handbags just fine. Many normal people even find those designs attractive.

Do I use Papyrus or Copperplate? I seriously do not know and highly doubt any of my customers do either. In 3.5 years the only time I have heard a reference to typography was "Do you have a font with an a that looks less like a typewritten a, more like a circle with a stick on the right side? Some of my kids can't recognize typewritten 'a' yet."

Sorry, I didn't check before I wrote that. Nope. No Papyrus for you.

Exactly. It all reminds me of the bit where the designer tells American Airlines or Zappos they're idiots, and the company tries to explain that their design is made to move shoes or airline tickets, not win design awards.

FWIW, the guy who criticized Zappos is the same person who put up Clients From Hell.

Except that both American Airlines and Zappos ignore the fact that clearer visual design translates to moving more shore and selling airline tickets.

I'll pay you $50 for fixing my sink because you seem like a nice plumber, but remember that I have an adjustable spanner in my toolbox and I would use that to fix my sink for free if I only knew how.

My favorite part of this post: even the designer who is trying so. hard. to empathize with "ignorant" customers still managed to suggest inflicting hundreds of dollars of font licensing costs on the project (go price Mariposa). But hey! At least you're not yet another website using Papyrus.

Perhaps we need a "designers from hell". I'd put somewhere up there: typography geek who insists on paying absurd sums for typefaces because they're so amazing. But at least "insists on making your whole site in Flash" seems to be on its way out.

We just shelled out something sick for FF DIN for our website, because that's what our designers spec'd. I'm not upset about it, because I'm a type geek, but I'm not kidding myself that any of my customers can tell it from Arial.

(slightly OT) I was under the impression the DIN was public domain?

There's an "open DIN", but FontFont's DIN sure as hell isn't public domain.

"go price Mariposa"

I did, following the link on the original article. If you don't need the full 5-font pack ($179) it's between $39 and $54, depending on the variant. Doesn't seem outlandish to me.

If you need neither bold nor italic, you can get it for $54. Most people aren't even getting $53 of value from that purchase.

"and not only that but a tendency to overreact to a client’s innocent requests or questions. Knock it off."

Maybe some of the CFH posts are overreactions, but I see way more posts that aren't. For example, "Next time we meet, you might wear something a little more low cut. We’ll get more done." I don't think that it is an overreaction to call that a bad client. Complaining about fonts, white space, etc actually seems to be the minority on CFH. Most posts now seem to be utterly absurd examples, like the one I quoted above, or billing disputes.

The writer could have done a nice post reminding designers to be patient with clients lacking design knowledge without even mentioning CFH.

But then he wouldn't have made Hacker News.

It seems that most of the people replying are "Designers From Hell"

As a techie, I understand the frustration behind web designers not commanding the amount of respect they truly deserve.

But, I agree 100% with this post. The author's very right.

There are many things that can be done to get more respect. Making fun of 'clients' behind their back is not only low, it also does absolutely nothing to better the situation. If anything, it makes it slightly worse.

4 of the 10 posts on the main page are about being ripped off. People see TV and movies and think it works like that in real life, I don't think its a problem you can fix. Having a little site to see other people facing the same issues is nice.

Fonts are overrated. As long as the message comes across and it doesn't cause acute eye-strain I think that the only people that really can get upset about fonts are designers.

I've never had an end user complain about any font, but I remember two designers arguing for days on end which font (visually next to indistinguishable) we should use.

It's worse than programmers arguing about editors.

I think design in general is overrated. Sure it adds value, but it's rarely pivotal to the success of a project. Take Google for example. Its logo is mediocre. It's the software that adds most of the value.

If Google put a little more thought into not only the visual design of its software, but also whether its software actually has a purpose (http://twitter.com/stevenf/status/10004051966), people might stop referencing them as a company with bad design that is successful anyway. I eagerly await that day. (Nothing personal, this has just been bugging me for awhile.)

I don't think so. Google's UI is actually a well designed one,the Google's brand too. By design here you're meaning fancy graphics.

Yes, you're right. I need to clarify what I meant. Usability can make or break a product; I'm talking about aesthetics.

I'm also talking about designers who are unable to differentiate between (1) the business value of their work and (2) the aesthetic value and artistic skill that it demonstrates.

I don't get it. The plumbers and electricians and other such people don't behave any different. Go to your nearest "working mans bar" or union hall or whatnot. You'll hear those guys joking about the same crap, the "diy"ers, and so on. It doesn't happen on a web page, but you can bet when they aren't face-to-face with the customer, they are mocking him.

While I agree with the article itself, some clients I had a misfortune to work with, really are from hell. Especially the sort that comes up with criminally bad UI rules and even after I spent days trying to explain why that would be detriment to their business, they keep insisting on it. So I build it and after 6 months they come back "GA tracking shows up that our registration process is completed in less than 10% of cases. This is really low, you need to do something". Yes, I do, I can yank all the shit stuff you made me put there in the first place.

These kind of clients go hand in hand with http://managersfromhell.com/ which have no idea how to stop them doing that crap from happening.

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