Hacker News Reader

Comment by cloudjacker | Hacker News Reader

I arrive at the airport in a Lyft.

I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line.

I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire.

I am at the gate in 5 minutes.

I like how trains basically let you show up last minute, and a 3 hour train ride actually means a 3 hour train ride, compared to airport, checkpoints and boarding time, possibly waiting on the runway, and air time.

But you really just need to upgrade your travel accommodations to make your airport experience more seamless.

View on HN

>I arrive at the airport in a Lyft.

That costs money. Many people take the train or a shuttle or lean on a friend.

>I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire.

You paid for that TSA PreCheck privilege which, while not in the grand scheme a large amount, is technically something.

It's also beside the point. TSA PreCheck is the result of a careful plan:

1. Make everyone undergo an intrusive, invasive, and time-consuming process that provides little to no additional security.

2. Allow people to pay for the privilege of not going through that procedure.

3. Profit!

I don't do PreCheck because buying your rights is not something we should be able or have to do. It's a perversion that leaves us happy to pay for something that was commonplace until 9/10/01.

> 3. Profit!

The Department of Homeland Security (of which the TSA is a part of) has a budget and its priorities are set in Congress. There is no "profit" motive here.

The US is throwing money at this problem, and money that only creates inconveniences for us.

There is definitely a personal profit motive for the people involved, i.e. promotions and raises, having more reports (huge in the government sector), not to mention to crony pork handed out to companies providing the xray/detection and other equipment.

How does avoiding xrays and registering in pre-check create more reports and support pork-barrel contracts to x-ray scanner manufacturers?

They're two separate concerns but they both contribute to the bloat and scope creep of this farce of an agency.

The 2nd US Secretary of Homeland Security and co-author of the Patriot Act is the founder of a lobbying front for the the manufacturers of the body scanners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chertoff

I'm still not seeing how registering for pre-check benefits this guy.

Apologies to all for posting this 5 times. Each time I hit reply it was giving me an error.

Over a long enough time frame, all bureaucracies become institutions whose only goal is the continued growth and accumulation of resources ( to be used for the continued growth of the bureaucracy itself), not for the original purpose of the bureaucracy.

Yup. Be it government or business, no difference there. Of course, in both cases a cleanup is possible- and occasionally happens. But then you need a proper market for business or a working democracy for government and those are frequently missing.

You forgot to add having all the personal data and fingerprints that you provide for PreCheck being divulged in a data exposure incident.

Thats cute but I just like privileged treatment. I would be pissed if TSA Pre had more people in it.

I also consider my time to be more valuable.

> I don't do PreCheck because buying your rights is not something we should be able or have to do.

The standard answer is that airplane travel, just as being able to drive on public roads is not a right. Founding fathers apparently failed in their inability to predict we'd be able to amazingly fly through the air one day. So it is not in the Constitution. Therefore please step right into the Rapeyscan machine if you want to make it to your job interview, or to see your family across country.

It seems to claim a right to travel unimpeded you'd have to walk, on public land, or ride a horse or bicycle. Basically what you might have done 200 years ago.

> Founding fathers apparently failed in their inability to predict we'd be able to amazingly fly through the air one day.

I think a traditional interpretation of the constitution is that unenumerated rights are reserved for the people, so this shouldn't be an issue, as designed. In reality, we can't even seem to maintain the rights that are explicitly reserved for the people (cough4th amendmentcough).

Found fathers did a fine job, by not enumerating rights and giving them to the people. But ignore that for the moment. TSA's mandate is "Protect the nation's transportation systems to ensure freedom of movement for people and commerce." TSA's mandate is not limited to the airports. So no, the TSA doesn't believe you have a right to travel unimpeded (even if by walking or riding a horse or a bicycle)

The easiest way for the government to acquire biometrics on every citizen is to make non pre-check so painful that people willingly go the pre-check route. What's next? Don't want to wait 5 hours at the DMV for a license? Just let us inject this little tracking chip in your neck.

Good news, everyone! TSA and DMV lines now reduced for owners of Amazon Echo or Google Home! Because {REDACTED}

For naturalized citizens, this is a non-issue as they've had to undergo this process already, FWIW.

> I like how trains basically let you show up last minute, and a 3 hour train ride actually means a 3 hour train ride, compared to airport, checkpoints and boarding time, possibly waiting on the runway, and air time.

Trains have their delays, too, such as long waits on passing sidings to clear the way for freight trains. Much of Amtrak's routes (72% by mileage) are on freight company owned rails that Amtrak pays for access to.

The freight companies gives their own trains priority over Amtrak. They are supposed to give Amtrak priority, but there is little effort spend on enforcement.

Amtrak gets priority when it is on time. The problem is that Amtrak is never on time. Don't blame the freight companies for that.

I've seen a couple sites say that Amtrak has priority only when on time, and others that say it doesn't matter whether or not they are on time. None of the former that I've seen have provided a cite for the on time claim, though.

49 USC 24308 (c) says:

"Preference Over Freight Transportation. - Except in an emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing unless the Board orders otherwise under this subsection. A rail carrier affected by this subsection may apply to the Board for relief. If the Board, after an opportunity for a hearing under section 553 of title 5, decides that preference for intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation materially will lessen the quality of freight transportation provided to shippers, the Board shall establish the rights of the carrier and Amtrak on reasonable terms."

I was flying with my wife, and we did a controlled experiment, since the Pre line and regular line both looked daunting. We got on different lines at the same time. We both took about 45 minutes to get through, but the Pre line was actually a bit slower.

But the person in the Pre line got to keep their shoes on!

I also get to keep my shoes on while I drive.

I'm often asked to remove my shoes before intercourse, but I found out you can opt out of both this AND the cavity search.

In no other country that I have flown from did I have to take off my shoes to go through security.

Although on my last flight I did learn that Nutella is a liquid. Maybe I should have frozen it?

We used to have to in the UK for a while.

It still happens. I always seem to get asked.

Heathrow's FAQ: "Do I need to remove my shoes at security? Only if you’re asked. Some passengers will be asked to remove shoes in order for them to be x-rayed."

Gatwick's FAQ: "You may be asked to remove your shoes and belt before going through the security archway."

I flew last November, from Trondheim (Norway) to Amsterdam, round trip. Both times I had to take my shoes off. But the rest of the screening process is much quicker, and the lines aren't as long. I even got extra searching when I arrived back home and it was quicker than the waits in the US - and that dude went through all of my stuff. I happily travel lightly, but still not bad at all.

Agree. My $100 Global Entry (includes TSA Pre) fee is my hedge against the American public's apathy towards the TSA.

It's not just the TSA they are apathetic towards -- it is all government activities.

> My $100 Global Entry (includes TSA Pre) fee is my hedge against the American public's apathy towards the TSA.

I don't blame you for paying that fee, but doesn't that just feed the monster?

Starving the monster doesn't work.

Besides, "anti-TSA" is painting with too broad a brush. Air Marshals are part of the TSA, as are a myriad of other useful agencies.

Its really just the pre-screen and invasive checks that need to stop. I think we all can agree that a dedicated force of Air Marshals is a good idea, right? As is the "intelligence" unit who is looking for active threats vs Airports.

It's only been since 2005 when the TSA was reorganized under the TSA as part of the Department of Homeland Security. Before that, the Air Marshals were part of Immigration and Customs, if I'm not mistaken.

But aren't you just buying your rights back?

Not for nothing, but Nexus is $50 and including Global Entry and TSA Pre. Also gets you into Canada, though I've not used that perk myself.

Instead of paying to get my rights back, I make a point of calling the TSA's bluff. I always refuse the pornoscanner and wait for the in-person pat down. If more people did this, the system would collapse, because - last time I shuffled through some back-of-the-envelope calculations, anyway - even the TSA's monstrously bloated budget comes nowhere close to the cost of hiring enough screeners to pat everyone down individually.

Of course they'd just change their already-arbitrary rules and force us all through the X-ray machines anyway, if we started refusing to use them en masse; but that'd create its own kind of legal push-back, and hopefully something good would come of the resulting mess. In any case, I'm not putting up with their nonsense while there is some means left I can use to resist it.

And I always fly in a kilt, regimental-style. TSA training has improved over the years, but the handful of times I managed to utterly flummox a TSA screener, suddenly confronted with a man wearing a "skirt," went a long way toward making me feel better about the humiliation of the whole exercise.

Sure, why bother building a scalable system when you can build a classist one?

I do the same, but some airlines don't participate in TSA Precheck (like Frontier), and it's not uncommon for the Precheck lanes to occasionally get shut down, especially later in the evening. It's also possible to randomly NOT get Precheck, even though you're flying with a participating airline and you are in the program.

On top of that, I've seen a number of recent reports from people who said that the Precheck lanes were randomly shut down at peak travel times, forcing Precheck members to get stuck in the regular lines with everybody else. Others report that large numbers of non-Precheck people are getting randomly sent through that lane, dramatically slowing things down and causing wait times of 30-60+ minutes.

Precheck is great, but even those of us who have a relatively privileged flying experience need to stay involved and aware about the monster that is the TSA.

Can someone explain this - occasionally the TSA will put people who are not pre check into the pre check line. Sometime s they will randomly select people to use the precheck line and sometimes they do this to expedite long lines. So if they can selectively flout their own rules why have them in the first place? Isn't security an all or nothing proposition?

Oh wow and each of those things are a premium service that costs money. There are many people who can not afford those, oh but tough crap to them right? How about all the people not in the same income bracket as you? I guess that's their fault in your opinion? That is just elitist.

Premium services often cost a little more money, it's a trade off between money and time. There's nothing stopping people flying if they can't afford the PreCheck, it's just a little longer. Anyway the regular line actually gets shorter when more people use the PreCheck line. Disclaimer: I'm a frequent traveller to the USA but I'm a UK citizen so I cannot use PreCheck.

I should be TSA Pre the first time I went through their procedure and so should everyone else. Rather than going through the arduous process and paying money for it, what's different from your screening from the one that people go through daily?

edit: deleted a word

TSA Pre is not what it used to be. It used to offer two advantages: Less-invasive screening, and mostly frequent fliers in the line. Over the past year or so, the second advantage has evaporated in many large airports I've traveled through. The airlines seem to be handing out Pre chits like candy now, and the Pre line is full of little kids, baby strollers, and people who have never been on an airplane before. It still saves time, just not as much as in the early days.

I always thought being a natural born citizen with no criminal record, with all the rights and privileges afforded therefore, would count as a "Pre-Check."

Silly Me.

What do you need to do to be able to get this convenience ?

Because it abstracts security to something that can be done in the weeks before your flight, instead of vetting a person in the hour and a half beforehand.

Most travelers are repeat travelers. Exactly what vetting is being done for Pre that can't be done once in person that sticks with the person for 1-2 years and is renewable in a similar way as Pre?

Sorry for the slow response. Just found this comment.

The first and most obvious response is that tsa-pre requires your fingerprints, and tsa does not. That obviously leads to an amount of pre-vetting that is never capable of being done in tsa.

In addition to this, I'd compare tsa to a blacklist and tsa-pre to a whitelist. Perhaps if your estranged ex-wife's crazy uncle goes to the same bar as a known terrorist suspect then tsa would prefer you go through the additional screening (and thus deny you to tsa-pre). However, the connection to the uncle is only made once you apply to tsa-pre (as its a whitelist), and thus more vetting is done.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com