I find this bizarre to hear, given that the US has pretty much the weakest protections for workers of any developed country.
That being said, most people in the US aren't clamoring for a lot of the "protections" you'll find in western Europe.
I don't think most people in the US has any concept of the kind of protections you get in most of western Europe being possible.
All other "protections" usually end up costing you someway or another. Mandatory vacation days are converted to lower salaries. Maternity leave makes it more difficult for young married women to find a job. Mandatory Insurances and Pensions are simply calculated in to the "cost of employment", reducing the actual salary. Not being able to fire a worker means much higher hiring standards, and make it a lot more difficult for inexperienced workers to find a job.
That's only ever a protection as long as your skills are valued and in high demand. Which means it's only a temporary protection, and only for a minority of the population.
> All other "protections" usually end up costing you someway or another.
The "other" is misplaced here, if all you have is the ability to quit, you have no stability[0], you have limited bargaining power (and are pretty systematically in a position of weakness), and the cooperative incentives with coworkers are very different, and arguably lower.
[0] and things get worse if you own property (now your "protection" is tied to property markets), a partner (now your "protection" may be tied to fucking them over) or dependents
What's wrong with that? If your skills are not valued or in high demand, you don't deserve any protection. Retool and equip yourself with valuable and skills that are in demand.
Should I be protected because I dug my head deep into MSDOS or APL and refused to catch up to the modern day ubiquitous Unix systems and C++?
So precisely how does the US allow people to do that? Which programs are available which will keep a family of 4 fed, sheltered and clothed while the parents retool because their jobs are shitty and probably doing illegal things, and they know for a fact that the second they call their company out they're going to get fired?
No, you shouldn't be protected from your job actually disappearing (past getting paid off) - but you should be protected from your employer being awful.
The U.S. and Canadian unions in the early 20th century are a great comparison. In Canada, they pushed the government to provide healthcare. In the U.S., they pushed the corporations to provide it.
Fast forward 80 years, and as unions are being depowered, the healthcare options get worse for U.S. employees because they're not guaranteed by law.
Which works out great for the top few percent of workers who are sufficient sought after to be able to dictate terms. Not so great for the vast majority that are easy to replace.
History has demonstrated pretty clearly that this is utter nonsense. Here's an example of the type of things that motivated unionisation in the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...
146 people dead because employers at the time saw it as perfectly acceptable to lock people in to prevent unauthorised breaks.
The 8 hour working day too - it took about a century to get it widespread - and numerous dead.
Frankly, that statement is deeply insulting to the more of the many people who have died to secure the labour rights we have today.
> Mandatory vacation days are converted to lower salaries.
I've yet to work anywhere with mandatory vacation days in the sense that I can not give them up. What I have always had, however, is the right to a certain minimum number of days. Even in Norway, which from a US point of view probably would seem quite extreme when it comes to the level of workers protections, if I truly wanted to work more I generally would be able to give up most of my vacation days.
The big difference is that the defaults in employment law in Norway provide terms that people spent decades fighting for, and to deviate from that requires explicit consideration. You can write a Norwegian employment contract in about two paragraphs. In fact, most of my Norwegian employment contracts were about that length.
But if you want to, you can find ways of deviating most protections as long as your employee is willing to pay for it.
As it happens, it turns out that most employees do not value "buying" fewer vacation days or shorter notice periods, or other abrogations of established workers rights, at nearly enough money for most of them to be willing to write it into employment contracts.
The reality is that while you may be right that salaries could be higher without some of these protections, they appear to be systematically valued higher by employees than employers once employees have actually experienced them.
> Maternity leave makes it more difficult for young married women to find a job.
Women leave employment in droves to have children whether or not they get paid maternity leave, and as such I see little reason to believe that providing right to maternity leave or paid maternity leave is likely to have a major additional impact.
One of the reasons why so many women end up leaving the workforce, often for good, on having children in many countries is that many can't afford childcare.
E.g. I'm in the UK, and childcare for a single child here can easily reach 1000 pounds/month until your kids reach school age (with some recent improvements in provision of part time government paid care). If you have a two pre-school children with care costs like that, you need a salary well above average before it is economical for both parents to work. Even if you have cheaper options available some places, you need a relatively decent paying job to be able to pay for child care for more than one child and have anything left.
And this provides an easy solution to reducing the impact of maternity leave: Provide more subsidised childcare. As it happens, that will tend to do more to bring more women into employment than maternity leave does to counteract it. In Norway, improvements to maternity pay/leave and childcare provisions have always gone in near lock-step for exactly this reason (on top of that, there has in recent years been a paternity leave provision to further reduce the disparity).
> Mandatory Insurances and Pensions are simply calculated in to the "cost of employment", reducing the actual salary.
Mandatory insurances and pensions are not about workers protections per se most places I'm aware of, but a side effect of welfare systems where the state will ultimately pay for the welfare of those who don't make their own contributions. This creates a strong public incentive for ensuring that as far as possible people contribute to insurances when they are in employment, which often makes employee contributions to things like pensions extremely tax beneficial, and thus a central point of negotiations.
E.g. in the UK, the Conservative government has been one of the drivers for more compulsory workplace pension plans as an explicit mechanism to shift more of the pensions burden off the government and basically using it as a way of undoing parts of the socialized nature of the UK pensions system.
> Not being able to fire a worker means much higher hiring standards, and make it a lot more difficult for inexperienced workers to find a job.
Not being able to fire a worker is not a common feature of workers protections anywhere.
It's not just about quitting Microsoft to Join google, It's also about quitting Mcdonald's to join Subway, or quitting Amazon to work for Walmart. The only workers who aren't able to quit a job are public sector workers, where the government has a monopsony on hiring.
> I've yet to work anywhere with mandatory vacation days in the sense that I can not give them up In some countries you can give up your paid vacation days. At a cost to your employer who would have to PAY YOU additionally. These all add up as additional costs of employment, and simply reduce the salary you earn in the first place. (As compared to what you could earn if there weren't paid leave laws in place).
Do some workers and employers prefer a lower salary for more vacation days? sure. Just agree on that as part of a contract. Don't force a one size fits all solution on everyone.
> Women leave employment in droves to have children whether or not they get paid maternity leave I wasn't addressing that. I was explaining that in countries that have paid maternity leave, women might not even get employed (or only get employed for certain roles) in the first place.
> Mandatory insurances and pensions are not about workers protections per se most places I'm aware of. Take Israel as an example. Mandatory pensions are considered a "triumph" of the unions, who are able to strongarm employers in to paying more into worker's pensions: http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-histadrut-employers-agree...
> Not being able to fire a worker is not a common feature of workers protections anywhere. It's never about "not being able to fire". It's about firing flexibility. Can an employer simply send you home, or do they have to go through lots of legal beuracracy first?
It's easy in Denmark: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/15/business/worldbusiness/the... But difficult in France or Germany: https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-its-impossible-to-fire... https://www.wbs-law.de/eng/doing-business-germany/employment...
The bottom line is that if it's difficult to fire someone, you'll be a lot more picky and careful before hiring them.
That wasn't the question, but rather if the protection cost you anything. Now you're just taking a "pro-business" stance as described in the top comment. Almost no employers would agree to larger amounts of unpaid vacation (which is what you are describing) unless that was the norm. I don't think anyone is questioning that paid vacation is shifting your salary around or make you work less hours, that's the whole point. But you can usually choose to take your full salary and work as many hours as if you didn't have vacation, the other way (getting unpaid vacation) is usually much harder.
The crazily bad working conditions for the lower end of the US labour market tells me differently.
> At a cost to your employer who would have to PAY YOU additionally. These all add up as additional costs of employment, and simply reduce the salary you earn in the first place. (As compared to what you could earn if there weren't paid leave laws in place).
Which misses my point, which is that while this may be true, the low number of people who take up the opportunity to negotiate compensation to give up vacation days etc. demonstrate quite clearly that workers here tend to value this more than employers do.
In most parts of Europe these laws set defaults. Some make it more difficult to deviate from the default than others (Norway is notoriously hard; many contract clauses are automatically null and void unless you're very careful), but most places you can deviate from most or all of them through negotiation and various degrees of creative solutions (in Norway too, mostly). Yet my experience is that most people don't.
If any employer came to me and offered to buy back a vacation day, they could do that. If they offer enough, I might take it. To date no employer has offered me enough for it to worth it, but some have provided programmes where they offered flexible numbers of vacation days, with a default.
I'm arguing that employers value those extra days at less than most workers do, or more employers would offer to buy back vacation days or offer such flexible vacation day schemes (when they do it tends to be seen as a way to get more vacation; only rarely is it seen as a way to get more money, though occasionally people "sell" vacation days one year to be able to buy more days the following year).
In fact, in many places in Europe the norm is now to offer more paid vacation days than the statutory minimum. e.g. in the UK the minimum is 28 days which can include the 8 public holidays, but the norm in professional employment is a minimum of 25 days + the 8 public holidays, and many places this will increase with tenure, in recognition of the fact that employees tend to value this higher than the equivalent increase in salary (we see this demonstrated in that for example many notoriously low paid jobs, such as in retail, often have above average number of paid vacation days - it is "cheaper" for these extremely cost-sensitive companies to offer more vacation than to increase salary by amounts that would have been valued equally high by their potential employees)
> I wasn't addressing that. I was explaining that in countries that have paid maternity leave, women might not even get employed in the first place.
And I pointed out that this effect is easy enough to counteract, and that you can give far more women the ability to choose to continue to work by offering better childcare provisions. To the extent that in a lot of countries, childcare provisioning has been a large part of the fight for womens rights (because it is usually women that ends up pushed out of the workplace when couples can't afford to have both people working)
> Mandatory pensions are considered a "triumph" of the unions, who are able to strongarm employers in to paying more into worker's pensions:
... as a proxy because they've been unable to get government to increase pensions directly. Most places workplace pensions represent basically a political defeat, and given the right wing nature of Israeli politics I'm not surprised.
> It's never about "not being able to fire". It's about firing flexibility. Can an employer simply send you home, or do they have to go through lots of legal beuracracy first?
Which is a very, very different situation. There are good reasons for bureaucracy: Employers show time and time again that they want to fire for reasons that have nothing to do with work performance.
> The bottom line is that if it's difficult to fire someone, you'll be a lot more picky and careful before hiring them.
Doesn't sound like a bad thing for either side to me. That said, in most European countries there are special provisions that make it a lot easier to fire someone during an initial 6 or 12 month trial period.
I've tried. It's never happened. I feel very cynical when I see all the oh-so-earnest discussions about "negotiating" after getting a job offer, because they all seem to assume that money is the only thing that matters, and that one can get more of it just by asking for it. Negotiating over a job offer has never gotten me jack squat, because American companies appear to be universally stuck on the idea that vacation time ought to be a function of seniority.
I work at a very large company. They have divisions with different salary bands and benefits. When you move from one division to another it's like moving to a brand new company. I guarantee you if you negotiated extra vacation at my company they would eventually transfer your business unit to another division and you'd stop accruing the extra. HR would shrug and quote you the corporate policy.
You're probably much better off working for a smaller place where the CEO was involved in the salary negotiations.
That reads like public sector workers are not allowed to quit, and that public sector workers are some special class who are not allowed to work for private firms.
Of course nobody is going to buy an extra work day, even if they like to work....
In the Soviet Union, this wasn't a problem... but it was soon noticed that a paid childcare worker would not care for a child as that child's own mother would.
Suppose that somehow you could pay for that. (probably not happening even for $million per year) Would you want it? Would you want your child to see someone else as, essentially, their mom? Who will your child love? Who will your child visit, decades later, in the nursing home? You can't substitute "quality time" for total time, simply being there for every skinned knee and question about life.
Money isn't good at purchasing love, and you would be unhappy with the result if you succeeded.
That's not really how you calculate compensation. You have to look at the salaries plus benefits. Usually people undervalue what the company can pay for them so more benefits usually means greater compensation. There's plenty of people in the US who accept salaries where they can't gracefully handle getting sick, unemployed or having a family.
"Mandatory vacation days are converted to lower salaries."
You can usually get this as cash compensation instead, they just can't force you to do so. In contrast to "unlimited vacation" that some startups have where you don't get anything if you work more.
"Maternity leave makes it more difficult for young married women to find a job."
This is a much longer conversation, but more than anything I would say that it's cultural. I know many women who have both successful careers and had maternity leave. But then maternity leave is usually paid by the government.
"Mandatory Insurances and Pensions are simply calculated in to the "cost of employment", reducing the actual salary."
Usually get more for the money.
"Not being able to fire a worker means much higher hiring standards, and make it a lot more difficult for inexperienced workers to find a job."
You can still usually be fired during a grace period, something like six months, or you can work as a contractor.
There is thus nothing to restrain the union.
The state normally also has elections. Because unions are allowed to fund election campaigns, the union effectively gets to sit on both sides of the bargaining table. The government "opposition" is a push-over.
If unions are unrestricted it sure is odd how all the teachers I know have poor conditions and poor pay.
With the state, there is no such worry. The union can demand retirement at age 30, $200 per hour, 15-hour work weeks, and a pension that is 110% of normal working pay. Why not? The state can pay it; all they have to do is seize assets from the citizens. They simply raise taxes. The police will use guns to deal with any who refuse. (see Puerto Rico and Greece) When the state is in control of currency, there is also the option to just print money. (see Venezuela and Zimbabwe) This too steals from the people.
I just read this in the news too, amusingly enough: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-36305132
Meanwhile, lots of places are having trouble because they caved to the unions. A couple more notable ones are California and Detroit.
Note that voters are free to take the side of the employees, either by sympathy (dumb) or to get better-qualified employees. Instead of demanding that unions be legal, simply demand that the state provide good pay. (not that you get a direct say in either, but you can lobby and otherwise make it a campaign issue)
Because of lack of unions companies can hire people as they need and fire when they dont need which helps more people get jobs.
This neighbor of mine was a teacher for 45 years, starting back in the 1940's. She found her first job in a little town and found a nice apartment for $45/month. The school superintendent heard about it. He called her and told her she had to rent an attic with another new teacher because there's a widow in town whose only source of income was renting to teachers. If she refused to live there, they'd fire her. The attic cost $100/month ($50 each) even though it was smaller than the apartment.