Comment by cperciva | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cperciva | Hacker News Reader

they are fighting a legal battle to win back their Canadian citizenship, stripped from them six years ago. They believe it is unfair and illegal that they are expected to answer for the sins of their parents

This is mis-stating (I suspect deliberately) the situation under Canadian law. They weren't "stripped" of Canadian citizenship (as can happen to war criminals who lie on their citizenship applications); rather, it was discovered that they had never been Canadian citizens in the first place. Their parents lied to them and told them that they were Canadians; but the fact that they were harmed by their parents' fraud is not a reason for the fraud to be made reality.

On the other hand, the Canadian government does seem to be wrong when it comes to blaming them for the circumstances and annulling Alex's student visa. The fact that have they lived in Canada and identify as Canadian seems like strong considerations in support of an application for a visa or even permanent residence; the fact that they were tricked into thinking that they were Canadian once doesn't mean that they shouldn't have the opportunity to truly become Canadian.

They were born in Canada so they should be citizens independently of their parents.

I'm not sure what you mean by "should" here. Are you arguing that I've misstated the law, or that the law is stupid?

Earlier you wrote:

> it was discovered that they had never been Canadian citizens in the first place. Their parents lied to them and told them that they were Canadians

You misunderstood a key fact from the article: They were born in Canada.

"You are probably a Canadian citizen if you were born in Canada", according to:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules/index.asp

where "probably" means there are very obscure exceptions that only a bureaucrat can dream up.

Unless born to foreign government [government] workers.

To make this clearer:

This means diplomats, ambassadors, and other staff working in embassies etc. They get immunity from Canada's laws, and usually taxes, but in return get no benefits from being there. They aren't considered residents of Canada.

The taxes thing was a pain when I worked in stores in Canada. You'd get about 10 customers a day presenting some kind of ID and claiming to be exempt from either gst or PST, and as a till monkey you'd have no knowledge or training in whether they were exempt or whether the IDs were legit. Add on people buying 6 cakes to avoid gst, and you might as well just press random tax buttons on the register

Probably that was the spirit of the law, but the letter of the law happens to cover the sons' situation. It's an unlikely edge case that the people who drafted the law could never have foreseen.

The law is not necessarily stupid, but an exception, if possible, probably should be made in this case, on moral grounds, since the kids seem to be victims of a situation they played no part in creating.

There are seven billion people in the world who are victims of not being born Canadian citizens. The distinguishing fact of these two is that their parents pretended to be Canadian; but while I have sympathy for the kids, it seems that it would be a bit perverse to say that if parents lie to their kids for long enough then we have a duty to make those lies come true.

Who is saying anything remotely like "if parents lie to their kids for long enough then we have a duty to make those lies come true"?

Unless you're claiming 7 billion people in the world were born in Canada, the most distinguishing fact about these two is obviously not that their parents pretended to be Canadian.

Unless you're claiming 7 billion people in the world were born in Canada

Not at all. I'm claiming that 7 billion people are not Canadian citizens due to the circumstances of their birth.

> Not at all.

Then, as I said, the most distinguishing fact about these two is obviously not that their parents pretended to be Canadian.

There really is no point in arguing this since you believe the circumstances of someone born in Canada, raised to some extent in Canada, and having an affinity with Canada are analogous to someone who doesn't even know Canada exists, like a large proportion of that 7 billion you talk about.

BTW, did you edit your other post? Not that it changes anything, but I don't remember it saying "victims of not being born Canadian citizens" when I replied.

Interesting that I've suddenly, just now, received no less than two downvotes on the above (otherwise popular) post and my post above it (4 simultaneous downvotes on just two posts), despite this currently sliding down Page 5 of HN.

To be legit, that's at least two separate people coincidentally downvoting the same day old posts at the same time, on a Page 5 submission.

Very well said. Indeed, I could not have put it so better.

Not a duty. But I still think it would be the humane thing to do.

The article mentions the applicable exception:

> Everyone who is born in Canada is eligible for Canadian citizenship, with one exception: those who are born to employees of foreign governments.

That's a bit of a stretch of the definition of employee. They sound more like freelancers, but this is why you have courts and lawyers.

In many jurisdictions, you are not a freelancer if you have only one customer.

Even more fun. He said he applied for a visa, to use on his Russian passports. Canadian citizens are ineligible to get visas, as they are not needed. So just by him getting a visa indicates the Canadian government views him as not Canadian.

Had the same thing with my kids. Born to me (Canadian). So instant citizenship. But to travel I've got to get their Canadian passports, which requires other docs, including the passport from their other country of citizenship. I asked if I already had that other passport, could she apply for a visa? Nope, she's a Canadian citizen, even if there is no documentation other than a birth certificate with a (naturally born) Canadian parent on it. They had quite a look of enjoyment as they explained I'd have to do double the work for zero benefit.

So do the children of "actual" Canadians who betrayed their true country and turned to work for foreign, non-Canadian governments have their citizenship annulled? The children of the Canadian counterparts to Ames and Hansson? (I'm sure there have been some)

Or have about those Canadians who work legitimately for foreign embassies? Canada clearly has those [1]. I assume their kids don't have their citizenship retracted.

My guess that this is meant as some sort of punitive action against the parents, but it seems wrong to punish the children. Even assuming the kids knew, as the article pointed out, what's a 16-year old who finds out his parents are foreign spies supposed to do? Call the FBI? I can see children in a totalitarian country reacting that way out of fear or an excess of patriotism, but have we really reached that point here in the West?

1. http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ntcs/frgn-eng.html

Children of Canadian citizens acquire citizenship by blood. The "employees of foreign governments" clause only applies if the parents are neither citizens nor permanent residents.

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