Comment by mgkimsal | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mgkimsal | Hacker News Reader

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I don't know Neil well, but he did speak twice at my conference several years ago (2010 and 2012). In 2012, he was walking with a cane, and had had a stroke between those two times I met him. Still in good spirits, but was definitely a little physically slower.

I'm pretty sure there's more to the back story that led up to this, and I've encouraged him to write more about this at some point when he's more stable. If I were to guess, based on the few points he's made in writing, there's some family rift going on, and I might also presume that he may have been paying for things for his mother that might have otherwise gone in to savings.

He's been through a divorce, which can certainly have a financial toll on anyone, and I think it was a bit later in life, which may be harder to recover from.

A late divorce, some health problems, trying to support a family member - all of that may quickly deplete someone's funds.

As to the homeless part, I think there's a certain pride involved, and asking for help may be embarrassing, especially to have to involve friends. It may be that many of his local friends would be tied to his mother/family, and may not be as supportive as one might hope.

I sent money to paypal, but it's frozen, and I'm wondering if I can reverse it and senf via GFM and he'll get access faster. Hrmmm....

I always have to wonder why people don't work at least minimum wage jobs, to solve the base problems like hunger.

I apologize if I'm missing something or if I seem really ignorant. Actually, I realize I am totally ignorant in this respect. I've never worked a job outside of programming, so I don't know—is it very difficult for some people to get 'normal' jobs? Is it mostly people with some kind of issue or disability that affects their ability to get a job who wind up like this? Are there not as many minimum-wage, or non-professional (or something) jobs out there as I think there are?

I realize once you get to a certain level it becomes really tough to recover, but when you're on your way, and savings are going, shouldn't you be looking around for any way to earn some cash?

For the Homeless... Yes. Employers, even min wage, want an address, and generally want someone that has some kind of stability.

There are very few employers that will hire homeless people. Of the ones that do some want to help, often they have been or know someone how has been homeless personally. These employers are VERY VERY VERY VERY rare... the other want to take advantage of their situation to get them to work for cash for next to nothing... the "Come work 8 hours for lunch and $20" jobs...

Further most of the legitimate min wage jobs are for entry level position and employers while never saying out out right do practice ageism... They want young workers that are less likely to understand employment law, and are easier to manipulate that older workers. This is true for older homeless and non-homeless alike so this would play a factor in your "when you're on your way shouldn't you be looking around for any way to earn some cash?"

While people may think the economy has improved and in some regions it has, for the most part is it a buyers market for labor, meaning employers can be very selective as they still have 100's or 1000's of applicant's for entry level positions... Young Adult unemployment is still very very very high.

Being homeless and getting a job makes it very difficult, almost impossible. Where are you gonna keep a nice suit? Where are you going to get shaving materials? Make-up? Do your hair? Even if you got the job, where will they send your checks? What if you don't have official documentation (birth certidicate, social security, etc) because you're homeless? How would you get around if public transport is unreliable?

And even if you could request them, where would the gov't send the documentation? Where would you do your taxes or anything?

Where are you going to get enough time on the internet to submit hundreds of applications? Or where are you going to print resumes to hand them out?

Being homeless makes the basics of getting a minimum wage job a near insurmountable task for many.

I suppose ther person at hand and many others had things happen so unexpectedly and quickly that he might not have had time to mobilize all these requirements for a job.

It bothers me that a handful of these problems seem possible to be easily solved with very little tax money. A place to send checks/ids (free PO boxes with an address for the homeless) a place to help get documentation and stuff...

Do shelters provide basic makings for a shower and shave?

Even internet access with available hardware, since it's more and more possible to do everything on the internet, would be reasonable.

Yes, some shelters will provide such, as well as an address to get mail at. They also will help you search for a job.

Getting reliable access to shelters can sometimes be more difficult than finding work.

> How would you get around if public transport is unreliable?

As an American, I always found it so ironic that public transportation is often the worst in areas where only those who truly need it use it.

People make a big deal about how better quality public transportation can be good for the environment (by getting more cars off the street), but what I think is more important is that getting more higher-income people on the bus vastly improves fare revenue and local political will for having good public transportation.

I would definitely take public transportation to work if I could, but Silicon Valley public transportation is awful. The lightrail doesn't go through too many useful stops; it's only good if you live somewhere along the line and are trying to get to downtown San Jose. My car commute to Cupertino takes half an hour or less, but if I wanted to take the bus it'd be an hour.

Of the homeless I've gotten to know, some shared with me that they were schizophrenic and the other had family but was estranged from them. Others were just down on their luck.

If they have kids and are a single parent, it makes it much tougher to just get a job.

Others have access to the resources, but they don't feel they could do the jobs they know about.

I think the majority of truly homeless need someone to really talk with about things, and many will never on their own be able to overcome their homelessness. If those with billions wanted to help, they would provide these people with analysts, medical attention, and perhaps nursing. I doubt they would want to live in a mental institution, but some really should have that level of attention to help avoid problems with alcoholism, drugs, etc. that are a way of escaping.

Still others are privileged. They could easily go back to their family or friends to get help, but they don't. I have very little sympathy for these people when they suck resources away from the homeless that really need it and make it seem like others that really are in need are there by choice. I wish these people would go live in their parents' basements where they belong.

Others aren't really homeless. Some that hold the cardboard signs may have apartments, homes, etc. I know one person where I used to work that I was told would leave her job, go to the corner and beg, then go home. It was an extra source of income.

Even with all of the people that aren't truly homeless or may not even be poor begging, it is still the right thing to help them if you can. You can put together a care bag with snacks, bathing supplies, etc. and give it to them instead of money. You can buy them food. You might not be able to afford to help them all, but even if you just help one every once in a while, if enough people do that, things would be much better. You can't stop homelessness by ignoring it, and there is such a disparity between most of us on HN and those living on the street, that as long as you know you're not funding a drug or alcohol habit, you're helping.

I didn't mean to imply that I'm unsympathetic toward the homeless--read my question again, I tried to be as clear as I can that I just need an explanation for the job thing. It's become more clear to me with other answers.

Of course I understand how tough it is, lack of privilege, lack of reliable family and friends and resources. I don't ignore homelessness. Like the OP of this thread, I live in Chicago, downtown. My short daily walk to work (4 blocks) generally has 4 homeless people on it, one in a wheelchair missing a leg. This is why I've been thinking about their situation more these days, what we can do, and how they ended up this way.

Something the other replies didn't mention is that some (many?) homeless people wouldn't be hired for minimum wage jobs because they'd be considered overqualified. [0]

There's always the option to leave education and employment off of your resume, but during the interview how do you explain even a four-year gap without mentioning "I was doing a Ph.D in particle physics" or "I designed marketing materials for Goodyear"?

[0] For example, a "Emmy-award-winning, New York Times bestselling author and Harvard grad cannot land a job as a greeter at The Container Store." http://www.scarymommy.com/club-mid/the-illusion-of-control-o...

To expand on this: low-end employers want people who (it appears) don't have any better options. If someone seems like they could find a better job at some point in the future, then they're less likely to put up with the kind of treatment that minimum-wage earners usually get. They might quit, or they might cause trouble and have to be fired. Better to go with someone who knows that they can't do any better.

That's been my experience. I had a white-collar job, quite well-paid, which I lost due to layoffs and the business moving to a cheaper part of the country. There's a huge industry downturn just now, which forced me to look into retail jobs. I did, and it was really, really difficult to get one because the people interviewing me knew that I'm only there until I can get back to what I was doing before.

This reply is interesting. I wonder if this doesn't apply at other levels as well. For example, a small business with a tiny engineering team not wanting to hire an engineer qualified to work for a top tier startup or tech titan.

This is a great answer, and something I'd never thought of.

In Germany it is virtually impossible to become homeless, because of many, many welfare programs to keep you afloat (Guess also in most of Western Europe). Thing is, you still have homeless people here. Not just those that flock from other countries. But people you might recognize from elementary school.

A lot of welfare programs do a lot for the majority of people in need (mentally sane) but nothing for a small minority (mentally ill). Because going through all those hoops of regulation favors those with a stable mind and actually scares off those without it (the most needy). Remember the shame to make your neediness public, to strangers or your neighbors and family, the anxiety to be turned down by some bureaucrat, to feel powerless, hopeless and useless. And while having all these emotions, you're supposed to manage your appointments and paperwork for receiving help.

Being mentally stable enough to make and keep social connections surely helps in this scenario, as you could casually ask around what government programs to skim or how to fill out forms - without disclosing your uselessness. Again, schizophrenia isn't helping here.

In contrast, many in our "intelligentia" are doing rather well within the welfare system. They know which funds to access, have a network of other people doing the same, people that know what paragraphs to blast back at the unfriendly bureaucrat. People less educated, less socially connected, less mentally stable loose out in those situations.

One of my professors worked with the homeless and said living on the streets is often the symptom of a greater problem, rather than the problem itself.

I agree, though there's a worsening to your situation once you're homeless. I can't find the study right now, but it basically said homeless people have a significant higher chance of being schizophrenic. It was concluded then, that being homeless was to blame for mental illness. I think this conclusion is not just wrong, because it's the other way around (mental illness causes homelessness) but I think this faulty conclusion actually hurts progress.

(Can't remember if this conclusion came from the authors themselves or from some media outlets trying to use this headline for some other agenda or biased readership.)

Getting even a minimum wage job while you have a home can be difficult, even more so when you are homeless.

For a lot of people in that situation they are on social security and thus if they get even a minimum wage job, they lose some of their benefits and have to completely reapply if they some how lose their unstable minimum wage or whatever kind of job.

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