* Stealing something back
* Stealing Hitler's secret plans
* Stealing a portion of everybody's property/income, but providing vital protection, infrastructure and social services in return.
* Stealing the heart of a girl from a guy who abuses her.
* Stealing land from the commons to efficiently put it to work
* Stealing land at market value to create a public works project that benefits the rest of society
In all seriousness, property rights are a critical component if you want to have a highly functioning economy, but as soon as you try to moralize the idea like it's a sacrosanct moral imperative (even at the expense of hungry people), you begin to sound like a foolish ideologue. The reason you sound like a foolish ideologue is because different moral ideas can very easily find themselves in opposition in common circumstances. If a situation forced you to choose between compassion and property rights (Maybe you're asked to steal a life saving medicine for someone else in dire need), which do you choose? Morally speaking, does property rights actually trump compassion, or do we let property rights trump compassion because that idea scales up to large societies better?Property rights is a critically important idea that helps to serve a society. It's not an end unto its own, nor is it an unimpeachable moral imperative.
"A Scottish miner was walking home one night with a bunch of pheasants he had poached from a local landowner's estate when the landowner appeared and demanded that the miner hand over the pheasants. "Why should I hand them over to you?", asked the miner. "Because this is my land and those are my pheasants", the landowner replied.
"OK", said the miner, "where did you get the land from?" "From my father", said the landowner. "So where did your father get it?", the miner asked. The landowner replied: "From his father, who got it from his father, and so on. This land has belonged to my family for 500 years!"
"Well", the miner continued, "how did your family get it 500 years ago?" "Oh, they fought for it", answered the landowner. "OK then", the miner said, "take off your jacket and I'll fight you for it!"
NB I first read this in The Poor had No Lawyers - described as "how this country was stolen from its people":
There are reasons to make it private, but it's quite different from, say, a sculpture. Clay is nearly worthless, so if an artist turns it into a valuable sculpture, that value was created. Obviously, there's a spectrum here. Even land typically requires an investment to make it useful for anything.
Food is largely created; especially something like sausages or cheese. So the tale of the miner above doesn't really apply. It may not even apply well in that case, if the pheasants were feeding on crops cultivated by the landowner.
I was really replying to the excellent comment by steego about property rights being a "sacrosanct moral imperative" - I sort of think that if you do believe that then you surely have to agree with those who argue that "taxes are theft" - not that I think this but at least they have a degree of logical consistency on their side.
Ownership of something you worked to create is different from ownership of something due to luck of being born in the right crib.
I don't have the numbers, but it seems like a lot of the rich people that come to mind made most of their money during their lifetime.
Also, wealth naturally dissipates pretty quickly over generations. One reason is simple fan out. Another reason is that the children are likely to be less frugal, and there's s high chance that some descendants are downright reckless financially.
How long this wealth lingers van vary a lot. If it gets divided among multiple children, it dillutes pretty quickly, but those children are still far richer than average children. You need either many generations of dillution or some really terrible mismanagement to restore this aristocracy back to regular people. And all those generations in between do wield power and wealth they never earned.
Of course an economic revolution like the internet is giving us, creates a lot of new millionaires and billionaires, and if they let their children inherit their entire wealth, that would create a fresh new aristocracy. Though I'm glad to see that a lot of new billionaires put their money to more philantropic uses. Not all of them, though.
Say someone says "let me search your car, what have you got to hide?" What argument can you use against it? The problem is that we've been manipulated to believe privacy has no real moral claim. In reality, you should be able to just say "it's private" and not feel compelled to provide further explanation.
It's not so different from being punched in the stomach. You aren't going to die, so what's the problem? You heal and everything is fine. So why won't you let me punch you in the stomach?
Theft is, similarly, a moral issue. If I make something, and someone takes it, I will feel bad. Much worse than if I had to sell it to pay taxes (even if I disagree with the tax policy).
> The problem is that we've been manipulated to believe privacy has no real moral claim.
I agree. We've also been manipulated to behave as if we believed property rights automatically trump other morals.
My point isn't that we should ignore the morality of these issues. My point is the morality of these issues can't be talked about in isolation because moral values aren't orthogonal to each other. Morality also shouldn't be discussed without taking pragmatic realities into account. You have to balance the two. Not everything is cut and dry.
How about, "A 2 year old was kidnapped 10 minutes ago from the apartment complex you are leaving from. We need to be sure the child is not in your trunk."
Good luck getting society to give you a free pass in that situation.
I have... maybe I'm missing something here. Aren't steego and I saying the same thing - he's saying it explicitly and I'm saying it by example?
Maybe what I'm missing is what you were trying to say with the "search your car" analogy. Is it that privacy has a moral component to it? If so I can agree with that. I thought that "What argument can you use against it?" was meant to rhetorically imply that there is no counter-argument.
You still need to weigh them against conflicting values, but if someone doesn't agree with you that issue X has a moral component at all (or if you disagree whether it's positive or negative), then you are bound to disagree forever.
When an officer asks "why? What have you got to hide?", they've turned it into a practical issue and removed the moral component that I believe exists. That's as ridiculous (to me) as asking why someone doesn't want to be punched in the stomach ("why? Did you just have abdominal surgery or something?").
Tell it to the ghost of Houdini.
I have a great capacity to become an asshole when I'm being glib. I would like to add that there's nothing impressive with how well casual prejudice becomes internalized because that is literally the easiest and laziest thing a brain can do.
Thank you. It made my day incrementally better.
Every once in a while I need a reminder that my loose tongue can make people feel marginalized. What you do is thankless and I know people resent you because they feel like you're trying to censor everybody. I know you're just trying to protect people who don't have a thick skin. Not everyone can have a thick skin, so somebody should look out for them.
I almost responded differently but I'm really glad I didn't. The world doesn't need more distance between people.
If you don't understand why this is a misogynistic statement, I think the best advice I can offer you is to research why it might be considered as such. Ask a feminist you know and trust more than me, as a suggested start.
But also, I was on the bus and felt a prompt response was more useful than an exhaustive one.
I think my degree of investment was entirely appropriate given the new turn of the discourse. But! But but but! As you were kind to me, I have paid it forward as well! I've actually offered an explanation.
Investigation of who I am talking to leads me to believe my first suggestion might still have more impact on their thinking though.
1. The concept that you can "steal a woman's heart from a man" implies a concept of ownership of the woman's heart by the man. Even metaphorically, this is a very toxic sort of thinking.
2. Implying that you should be able to "take possession" of a woman's affection from a man if you find him less worthy only doubles own on the woman's lack of agency in this scenario. That this language is old and from "a different time" is no defense.
3. Implying that this is in fact a good thing because "he abuses her," is a double whammy because it invokes a very negative cognitive resonance with "Why don't those bitches see I am a nice guy" reddit psychology (made famous by the UCSB incident) but also implies that a woman would need rescuing from what the third party man views as abusive because she's not capable of such an escape herself and needs a man to effect said escape.
We can talk about how co-dependency makes 3's secondary point more debatable if you're an expert in that subject matter, because it's morbidly fascinating.
But yes, ultimately "because feminism." Inasmuch as this sort of talk is at least as "offensive" as implying a man "only thinks with his small head." And while equally offensive, it has far more pernicious effects for women in a society that has so much inertia directed towards removing their autonomy (both of body and mind).
Ultimately, I think the author did this by accident. And that accidental misogyny is what I was commenting on. That's what we mean by "internalized". It's so natural that you can use loaded language and actively perpetuate stereotypes without even realizing you're doing it.
What I was embarrassed about was callously invoking domestic abuse and mixing it with a cheesy heroism cliche to make that point.
Virtue of Selfishness puts the case succinctly:
"The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.
Bear in mind that the right to property is a right to action, like all the others: it is not the right to an object, but to the action and the consequences of producing or earning that object. It is not a guarantee that a man will earn any property, but only a guarantee that he will own it if he earns it. It is the right to gain, to keep, to use and to dispose of material values."
"The right to life means that a man has the right to support his life by his own work (on any economic level, as high as his ability will carry him); it does not mean that others must provide him with the necessities of life.
The right to property means that a man has the right to take the economic actions necessary to earn property, to use it and to dispose of it; it does not mean that others must provide him with property.
There is no such thing as “a right to a job”—there is only the right of free trade, that is: a man’s right to take a job if another man chooses to hire him. There is no “right to a home,” only the right of free trade: the right to build a home or to buy it. There are no “rights to a ‘fair’ wage or a ‘fair’ price” if no one chooses to pay it, to hire a man or to buy his product. There are no “rights of consumers” to milk, shoes, movies or champagne if no producers choose to manufacture such items (there is only the right to manufacture them oneself). There are no “rights” of special groups, there are no “rights of farmers, of workers, of businessmen, of employees, of employers, of the old, of the young, of the unborn.” There are only the Rights of Man—rights possessed by every individual man and by all men as individuals."
> If a situation forced you to choose between compassion and property rights (Maybe you're asked to steal a life saving medicine for someone else in dire need), which do you choose?
The Objectivist answer is that sickness (like hunger) is not a sudden emergency but a predictable element of human life. Because of this, people invest in researching and manufacturing medicines, or studying to become doctors. They own the products of their labour, and are entitled to trade them (or donate them) as they see fit.
Many people would say they agree with this, but that there are some situations where rights should be compromised. The thing to understand is that rights are principles. In Objectivism, principles essentially encapsulate long-term pragmatism: principles are concepts you should always follow if you want good long-term results. (Rights, for example, encapsulate the principles to follow in the social realm). There will always be bad effects to violating principles, even if there appears to be a short-term gain.
If you say that one group of people (e.g., drug companies) should have their rights violated based on the needs of another group of people (e.g., sick and poor people), you establish the principle that anyone's rights can be violated for the needs of anyone else. You end up with different pressure groups and lobbyists pushing for government handouts and favourable legislation (i.e., the current situation). Linking back to the field of medicine, one practical outcome of the push to prevent "greedy drug companies hoarding medicine" has been that medical innovation has increasingly focused on things like viagra and plastic surgery, since if they develop life-saving innovations their intellectual property rights may well be violated.
The closest thing would be say primitive hunter gatherer societies. Ever since we started having specialists that paid for their decreased production by providing greater fitness for society as a whole benefit from society has only been tangentially related to utility provided.
The creation of such a society wherein value is so related would be such a profound improvement over every society in existence wherein value seems to derive from leverage not value that it not ethical implications would surely be the primary topic of discussion.
In a bizarrely unfair real society arguing that you have the right to maximally leverage whatever value you your dad and your grandpa managed to drag away and coral seems greedy and disingenuous.
Devoting a minority of societies resources to ensure everyone has something so that they can find their own way to contribute seems to be the only sane solution to an otherwise broken system.
Secondly you mention drug companies and specifically their intellectual property in the same breath as speaking of protecting a man's ability to freely go about providing value to society but ip is a wholly artificial construct and designed to shape how value is distributed disproportionately not to empower creation of value but to empower others to extract rent from society something that seems antithetical to your own desires.
You are concerned with the government taxing and spending on handouts but not about enabling monopolies that have no basis in reality or the notion of property rights. If I have a right to my chemistry set surely if I make the right molecule my property doesn't become yours.
Basically Objectivism is a great way for those who have historically controlled the Lions share of a societies resources while providing minimal value to society in return to justify their greed.
You're arguing against aristocracy, not capitalism. In 19th century America (the most free society in history) there was a phrase "from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations." In the absence of state-protected income, inherited wealth never lasts long.
The most influential enlightenment philosopher was Kant, who was ostensibly pro-liberty but whose work paved the way for Hegel and Marx.
I might sound like a fanatic but if you actually read Rand it becomes clear how revolutionary her philosophy actually was. She's a system-builder, something unknown in modern philosophy (since Kant). Modern-day libertarianism is mostly a creation of Rothbard's, a one-time student of Rand's who later put all his energy into discrediting her while plagiarising her philosophy. (Just one example: the initiation of force as the basic social evil is an original concept of Rand's).
> I might sound like a fanatic
Quite.
> but if you actually read Rand it becomes clear how revolutionary her philosophy actually was.
I've read little of Rand and regret devoting time to doing even that; reading more isn't really something that seems worthwhile. But, certainly, nothing you've pointed to about her philosophy is revolutionary, or even novel (I'm sure there are some things in it that are at least the latter, though you haven't identified any.)
> She's a system-builder, something unknown in modern philosophy (since Kant).
Really? You can't swing a stick in a gathering of modern philosophers (and particularly those concerned with political/economic philosophy) without hitting a half-dozen system-builders. Rawls would be one notable example (from a radically different orientation than Rand.)
> Modern-day libertarianism is mostly a creation of Rothbard's, a one-time student of Rand's who later put all his energy into discrediting her while plagiarising her philosophy.
Rothbard (and Rand directly) are clearly influential in modern libertarianism, and particularly American right-libertarianism, but you have to take a pretty narrow view of what "modern libertarianism" is to see it all grounded in Rand (whether via "plagiarism" by Rothbard or not.)
> Just one example: the initiation of force as the basic social evil is an original concept of Rand's
No, actually, that's also found in (among other places) Locke's Second Treatise.
E.g., I didn't go into details of my view on Locke because they weren't central to my point. After I became an Objectivist, I did some research on Enlightenment thinkers precisely because people dismiss Objectivists for being ignorant of past philosophy, and what I found tallied with what I'd heard from well-informed Objectivists. Locke is an empiricist and holds that certain knowledge is generally impossible outside of areas like geometry. This skepticism subtly undermines any philosophy built on top of it; Rand's epistemology, in contrast, shows how certain knowledge can be possible (within a particular context), which gives her the framework to build an entire system of integrated principles, basing politics and aesthetics on ethics, and ethics on metaphysics and epistemology.
Likewise, I didn't list what I think is novel in Rand's philosophy as I assumed honest readers could research it for themselves. Here's some: her solution to the is-ought problem, her solution to the problem of universals, her theory of the nature of romantic art, and, obviously, a complete moral code justified via rational self-interest. Locke and other writers did talk about the evils of force (and I often enjoy telling people that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" was originally Locke's "life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness"). However, it was Rand who first coined the phrase "initiation of force", and Rand who first argued that reason and force were essentially the only two means of dealing with men, making non-initiation of force the fundamental social principle.
(For said honest readers, the books which persuaded me were The Romantic Manifesto and Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, though Virtue of Selfishness is probably the easiest starting point. Once I studied Nozick's famous criticism of Rand, I concluded that he was someone very smart making a deliberate attempt to misunderstand her argument, and I was pretty much soured permanently on 20th century analytic philosophy, "libertarian" or otherwise).
> Judges overturned a theft conviction against Roman Ostriakov after he stole cheese and sausages worth €4.07 (£3; $4.50) from a supermarket.
> Mr Ostriakov, a homeless man of Ukrainian background, had taken the food "in the face of the immediate and essential need for nourishment", the court of cassation decided.
> Therefore it was not a crime, it said.
(...)
> In 2015, Mr Ostriakov was convicted of theft and sentenced to six months in jail and a €100 fine.
Italian judicial system "does not try anybody by a jury of peers: everyone is judged by professional judges or by a panel of judges" [1]. Thus, the compassion reserved to the jury of peers (in the form of Jury Nullification) in systems like the american one would be absent from the Italian one if not for actions like the one by this judge.
Not going to enter in the merit of the cause itself (as it's very subjective and personal experience can affect the judgement) but I agree that the judicial system can and must apply discretion in its judgements.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Proce...
It IS a crime, however one that court could rule to not punish the convicted. At least that is how it would probably work in my country.
So, this isn't that odd.
Or even shoot someone, as long as you could reasonably expect that your or someone else life was in danger. Even if it turns out that there was no real danger, for instance you where threatened with an unloaded or even a fake gun.
If you are very hungry, and steel a sausage, the crime compared to the need is very low.
* you are allowed to drive under the influence of alcohol and endager other people's lives * you are allowed to kill another as long as they weren't 100% obviously harmless * stealing food is worse than threatening or terminating others' lives
Steeling food for a small amount when you are out of means and you are starving is not a crime.
It seems as this is the law here in Sweden. The factors in play are that you could reasonably be expected to be helped out of danger by the government, at least here.
It's quite simple when you think about it would you rather die in the streets from lack of food or go into a supermarket and take some to live another day hell even if you get caught you go to prison where you get fed.
There's no point in punishing these people the punishment is actually better then their current situation and any fines etc that you give them they will never be able to pay anyway all that does it prevent them from improving their situation since whenever they will start recovering a bit the debt collectors will show up to knock them down.
Besides being a cruel and unusual punishment for someone trying to better their lives it's not good for the economy either.
What kind of environment do you partake in discourse in that this kind of condescending contribution is acceptable? It sounds like you're taking your cues from the Comic Guy from The Simpsons. "Tu quoque? yawn".
For the sake of my blood pressure I won't go into the similarly strange attempts to solve what systemic failures (almost always the ones that minorly inconvenience the privileged, isn't that strange?) folks of this mindset do deign to recognize, but...yeah.
It is never, ever ok to steal. Stealing from a supermarket is stealing from a person or people. Just because you cannot name who is affected doesn't mean it isn't people. It is black and white. The morality and legality are in alignment in this regard. This whole "shades of grey" leads to the blackness that destroys people and civilizations.
The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go.
That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position.
> The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go.
Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.
Believe what you want, but I sure as hell didn't grow up in a privileged position.
> Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.
Churches will give food, its part of many faiths. Stealing is wrong, and brings misery to others. People will help others, but taking is never right because of the chain of pain you unleash in the world. Whose privileged when you can decide to take from others?
I think the disconnect there is that we appear to have very different ideas of what is required to be privileged.
Have you ever starved? (And going hungry is not starvation).
> Churches will give food, its part of many faiths.
Again, have you ever starved, and tried to think clearly enough to find someone willing to give you food?
> People will help others, but taking is never right because of the chain of pain you unleash in the world.
If the choices is theft of necessities or starvation, I would always consider theft morally acceptable, because the pain involved is magnitudes apart from the pain caused by petty theft.
I've gone hungry and I know my Dad did. There was choices made by this person before they hit starve. They were hungry first.
Why is visiting a church or other organization unacceptable to you?
Going hungry and starvation are two vastly different things, both physiologically and mentally.
> There was choices made by this person before they hit starve.
And these choices were insufficient to save him. So now what? Do you want him to starve to death because he was unable to fix things? Are property rights for a few euros worth that much to you compared to the well-being of a fellow human?
> Why is visiting a church or other organization unacceptable to you?
If you think that is what I said, you did not understand what I wrote.
> If you think that is what I said, you did not understand what I wrote.
I cannot think otherwise because you seem to say that stealing is still the only means of survival. I offered what this person could do instead of stealing. Stealing is still not the only solution.
My point, which you still do not seem to understand, is that someone who is starving is not in a frame of mind where you can expect them to be able to calmly and logically go through the available options, weigh them, find the most moral one, and execute on it.
Hence why I asked if you have ever experienced starvation rather than just hunger.
To me the above ranks with the (admittedly apocryphal) "let them eat cake". Technically, yes, he "could" have done many things.
No, hell no. Its not let them eat cake. Its there were other ways to save yourself and not cause pain to others.
In other words: You still don't understand what I wrote above, and you're still talking from privilege.
I think stealing is wrong, no matter the situation and desperation. However, I also believe that the supermarket (or whoever was stolen-from) has the right to compassion for this individual. And if you ask me, I believe people are generally good, and most would forgive the transgression without hesitation.
But saying stealing is ok is wrong.
There are certainly people in this world who would sit on top a mountain of food that will spoil if not eaten a foot away from a starving dying man and tell him he's not allowed to have any because they'd like to watch him suffer.
In that case stealing is quite alright by me.
Hell, there are people in this thread who would apparently play the role of the foodpile guy because of their intensely, sincerely held moral conviction!
> I think stealing is wrong, no matter the situation and desperation.
So you put property rights above the life of someone else?
Personally I find such an attitude incredibly offensive.
"Both very busy, sir..."
"Those who are badly off must go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."
Nuance always matters. Context always matters. You won't derive meaning without them. (And if you aren't trying to derive meaning from something, if you're just aiming for the reptile-brain blood rush of Airing That Opinion--frankly, there are easier methods to replicate that that don't involve bothering other people.)
And while I am emphatically not accusing you of anything in your post, my experience has led me to the rule of thumb that the fear of such a rhetorical dismissal, as you expressed, stems from a desire to dismiss out of hand something challenging. It is in almost every case I can think of a do-unto-others-before-they-do-unto-you defense (even when, as is generally the case, nobody's doing unto you in the first place), so I'd personally think pretty hard before being too holy about it and telling vidarh what's frowned upon here.
Do you really think it's important whether this particular poster is 'privileged'? If it came out that she were actually a poor trans orphan who grew up starving and had a severe physical disability, would it change the discussion? What if he were a 22 year old tech bro with a rich dad who chugs beer and red bull and harasses women in his spare time? Are the points he made less correct now? If you think so, you should reconsider how you evaluate arguments, discussions, perhaps words themselves. Does it matter for any real purpose of the discussion other than to help you condescendingly armchair-psychoanalyze him (as you have with me) and tell him that his background is why he believes what he believes, and that he just doesn't really understand and never can?
The beauty of discussions online (and there are plenty of drawbacks as well of course) is that you can express yourself, state an opinion, have a thoughtful discussion with others without people hating or dismissing you for who you are; only what you say. That's why most forums don't have a "real names policy". That's why most forums don't have a 'privilege-meter' next to usernames that uses a sophisticated algorithm to measure how many disadvantages a person has been through, spitting out a final number that tells us how seriously to take her posts. This kind of unsolicited digging into a person's personal life is generally frowned upon in any online discussion forum.
I'd argue that seeing the world in black and white is what destroys people and civilisations rather more.
Many of the worst abuses of history have come from black and white thinking (people with black skin are not people, jews are not people, people without my political beliefs are not people).
That's a crap argument, and has nothing to do with morality that's base racism and can be just as easily phrased as some shades of grey. I'm getting sick of people twisting what people say into some racial thing when we are talking about concepts and morals.
Every time someone says "the end justifies the means" or "well, its really not that bad" or "I'm not cheating as much as them" makes the world becomes a worse place. Keeping your morals and doing the right thing benefit everyone.
"La Propriété est elle juste?" - Proudhon
Every society has a law like "no murder -- except sometimes, when you can".
And a law like "no stealing -- except sometimes, when you can".
And sometimes trying not to cause pain does make the world a worse place. Would you have police officers try their hardest to avoid causing pain? Criminals feel quite a bit of pain when they are incarcerated.
Nothing in the world is ever so simple as you suggest.
We can describe two different acts with the same word:
> A guy stole a sandwich from a super market because he was starving > A guy stole a Ferrari because he always wanted to drive a Ferrari
These two things are not the same.
The temporality of property rights is especially interesting. I hope you do realise that at some point in time there were no humans, and as such no such thing as property rights.
When a human first laid claim on a stretch of land, you could argue that this in itself constituted theft, at this very moment this person deprived every other human being from accessing or cultivating this land. What moral right did this person have to claim this land?
From there, millennia of war and conquest, laws and civilization.
In Switzerland, where I'm from, patrician families still hold vast estates, dating back to feudal times. They legally own all of this but what about the morality of it? These estates were acquired centuries ago.
By modern standards, the morality of it back then was clearly not given, because the wealth was amassed on the back of a populace in servitude. Add to this, that this has an impact on society today, by extension these inherited properties are limiting today's generations to express themselves.
In many countries, including Switzerland, there are of course specific laws that recognizes that property rights does not extend to full monopoly rights on land use.
I'm from Norway, and the Nordic countries in particular have very extensive exemptions to private property rights that recognises that there are certain rights to land use, as a limited and fundamental resource, that are held in common irrespective of property rights.
Sweden has this baked into the constitution. Norway until the late 50's I think did not have a law mentioning this right as it was considered so fundamental that it was long considered unnecessary to codify and courts would apply the principles anyway (this may not sound unusual from a common law perspective, but Norwegian law is a codified system of the Scandinavian model that evolved from Germanic law with Napoleonic influences, not at all a common law system) - the way you don't specifically cover the right to freely breathe the air.
In Norway (and it's much the same in Sweden and Finland), this e.g. means that outside of urban settlements you don't need to ask permission to walk through a privately owned forest, or across a field, for example (though you may not walk across cultivated fields other than when frozen). Even if fenced in. Nor is the land owner entitled to stop you or erect barriers to prevent you access (that does not mean barriers are illegal if they have reasonable purposes, such as e.g. keep wild animals out, but there'd be expected to be gates etc. allowing access). You can pick berries or mushrooms etc. for your own consumption but not hunt without permission. You can camp. There are limits, but they are in line with what you would expect of considerate campers. It is also generally considered rude to e.g. camp right outside someone's garden without introducing yourself and asking, even if on land you may technically have right to camp on. There is a general zone of 100m along the shoreline that it is not normally permtted to build on, even if part of your property (though exemptions are granted, with the caveat that it is still not permitted to prevent access or usage of the immediate shoreline no matter how close you've been permitted to build).
This is considered so ingrained in our culture that it is (or at least was when I was a kid) taught repeatedly in primary school.
Fencing off or otherwise trying to restrict access to "utmark" ("outlying land"), even if it is your own property, is not just legally restricted but considered reprehensible and morally indefensible to the point where it regularly causes major outrage if someone is trying to push the limits (or e.g. if particularly extensive exemptions are given to build near the shore).
I still get this deep instinctual feeling that it's wrong when I e.g. walk along the Thames path and encounter gates that gets locked at certain times, or when I come across park squares with fences all around.
I don't think people who have only ever lived in places where they encounter this regularly even understands how liberating it feels not to be locked in like that...
If you want to feel moral, go feed a poor person today. You'll feel much better. Don't assault the basic pillars of the civil society that is what has left you rich enough to be able to afford that without a second thought for a quick hit on the virtue pipe.
(Preempting one of the lines of attack I can forsee coming here, the crime is also minor and the penalty should be minor correspondingly. I would happily support some sort of very compassionate enforcement; perhaps a sentence of a few days' service at a soup kitchen which will also feed him or something. But there is still an important difference between enforcing the law even in this minor way, and declaring that certain people lack Privilege and therefore, ironically, have the privilege of being above the law, which is the sort of caustic poison that can dissolve civil society entirely.)
What history has to say is that, at many points, society has failed to provide help for the poor on a volunteer basis, and that said people have died of starvation and/or violated the law to avoid it.
If you expect that the normal order of things is for people to voluntarily donate in order to avoid hunger problems, then you have to admit that law and order will be broken on occasions, because the nominal food-providing mechanism occasionally fails.
Who cares about hypotheticals that don't apply to the current situation? Well, philosophers, sure, but it's a completely different question than what we're actually faced with here.
Am I not privileged enough to have an opinion that theft, as such, should not be tolerated?
I still think that we should collectively help people who are in risk of starvation.
Black and white thinking can, sure, be a result of privilege, but it can also be a product of its absence. Aside from being fallacious to attack a speaker for your presumption of what in their background might be the motivation for their ideas rather than addressing the ideas themselves, you'll also quite often be wrong on that presumption.
Yes, well they're stealing from someone, aren't they? But of course, it's ok if someone steals from the heartless grocery store owner, isn't it? I feel as if you would have a different opinion if anybody was allowed to walk into your house without your permission and ransack your fridge (and anything else they felt that they "need").
The moral problem with theft isn't that it is illegal. The problem is that one person expended their own personal resources to create the good. The person has spent their own time, money, and/or intelligence to create some good that now has value. The thief, who has expended zero effort to create nothing, takes the fruit of the producer's labor for no work, on the basis of his "need". What kind of society does this produce, where you can take things from others solely on your basis of need?
You seem to be making the cliche mistake of associating morality with need. I hope one day you don't need to learn this isn't always correlated...
The Catholic Church would agree: stealing is intrinsically evil, and thus wrong always and everywhere. The way they handle situations like this is by defining "stealing when starving" as "not stealing at all, but reappropriating things according to God's design for them." They call this the "universal destination of goods":
§2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another's property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one's disposal and use the property of others.
In other words, the right to private property does not trump the right to life.
are in no position to lecture anyone on morals. Read "The God Delusion" if this isn't abundantly apparent to you from studying history and/or reading the news.
"Organization X is wrong about A, therefore they are wrong about B," is never a logically valid proposition. In fact, nothing about organization X is relevant when determining if their propositions are correct.
Quite the opposite, I'd say. Italy is a catholic country, and it is, I think, common opinion that the very forgiving Italian attitude is due to it. Protestantism and Calvinism in particular are much more strict in considering everybody responsible for their actions. Catholics can always go the the nearest priest, confess their sins and be immediately absolved from them. They don't have to deal with their conscience.
While the first sentence is true, the second captures neither the spirit nor the fine print of the ritual. I would agree with the general statement on differing temperaments, though would phrase it differently: there is a built-in accommodation and acknowledgement that human weakness can result in failure to be the best you can be, but to nevertheless continue to strive towards that goal, even after failing.
EDIT: In theory... I willingly acknowledge it doesn't always look like this in practice.
(They clearly do not agree with user stronglikedan.)
When thou comest into thy neighbour's vineyard, thou mayst eat grapes thy bellyful at thine own pleasure: but thou shalt put none in thy bag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
According to one source:
...The dominant view in Jewish law ... allows a person to steal or damage property of another to save his own life. Thus, one may break in to the house of another, or steal insulin if that was necessary to save his life. However, such a person must compensate the owner of the property.
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/ch_stealsavelife.html
This source also says about American law:
The issue is not whether a person can steal or destroy property to save his life or the life of others since it is accepted in American law that such an action is permissible. The issue is whether such a person must compensate the owner if he did not create the danger. There are few cases directly on point but the weight of such cases conflict with the position taken by sections 197 and 263 of the Restatements. These cases and the doctrines of admiralty law support the contention that when neither the actor nor those whose lives are saved are legally at fault for placing themselves in the perilous position from which they can only be saved by destroying the property of another, they bear no legal liability for destroying that property.
You don't actually have to provide income information when you first sign up for commodities programs these days (it is required later), and EBT provides a fair amount.
Shelter is the bigger concern than food for US poor. We really need to look at the whole idea of housing. Training money is there, but its pretty useless without proper shelter and transportation systems.
Presumably, any legal finding of necessity by a judge is based on an awareness of an existence of these programs, such as they may be in the applicable jurisdiction, and a determination that they were not, in fact, sufficient to meet the need in the specific circumstance at issue.
The existence of a government program intended in theory as a general solution to a problem does not logically imply (and, in fact, often falls very short in practice) that the problem is, in fact, adequately and sufficiently addressed in all concrete cases.
> but we do all pay taxes for the specific purpose of having a better society (including things like food banks, soup kitchens, etc for people in need).
And also including judges that review the specific circumstances of particular cases brought before them.
and consider what the consequences are for the theft. maybe they get a fine. they won't pay it, of course, because they can't even pay for food. then the fines accumulate, which has no immediate effect on the thief and does nothing to stop them thieving, because if they can't pay for food then they can't pay a fine, no matter how much they owe. on the other had, they may, eventually, be thrown in prison for their crimes, where they'll get fed on the regular, which is practically encouragement to commit crimes. you could also kill them, but i feel that's problematic.
if you don't punish the thief at all then, in the off chance they have the chance to get back on their feet, they won't have a pile of debt keeping them down, they won't have a criminal record because they were starving, and they won't be dead.
So, never been homeless, poor and hungry, I presume?
Here's some Brecht for you:
You gentlemen who think you have a mission To purge us of the seven deadly sins Should first sort out the basic food position Then start your preaching, that's where it begins
You lot, who preach restraint and watch your waist as well Should learn, for once, the way the world is run However much you twist, or whatever lies that you tell Food is the first thing, morals follow on
You've got to have something to eat and a little love in your life before you can hold still for any damn body's sermon on how to behave.
We should provide aid for people who are in danger of starvation, but it does not give anybody right to steal from fellow human.
I have a personal experience with possible abuse.
I saw a man, probably a foreign (so he is probably not supposed to be familiar with local aid system), with a sign that he needs money for food because he is starving and he indeed did not look alright.
After considering the situation (well, to be honest he can be pretending), I decided to give the man 10 euros because if he really is starving, he should not stay there to collect small coins, but also as a test, such that he could be given further directions when he really is in need.
So, he took the money, hid it and continued his act.
If you choose not to then the changes are that you were actually not starving.
Of course, like I told, this is a case of possible abuse. I have no idea what was actually going on.
Not much experience with being poor/homeless, have we?
For those not faking it (which can happen too), a "starving" sign doesn't mean "I'm literally starving right now, I just need a few dollars for a burger and I'll be on my way".
It means I can't support myself, I'm dead-poor, and probably homeless, and can use all the money thrown at me to get by for a few days.
Anyway, I do not think that this was the case you are describing. The guy acted like he was really starving. So perhaps he was, I really do not know, I am just describing what happened.
Well, beggars and homeless people rarely have dictionaries at hand.
>The guy acted like he was really starving. So perhaps he was, I really do not know, I am just describing what happened.
Well, he might very well be very hungry. Often people in those situations can have 2-3 days between a decent eat.
But it's not necessary that they'd go buy something immediately as soon as they get a donation. Lots of factors can be involved, from waiting to gather some more (maybe with a few more they can even book in somewhere for the night and have a bed and a shower), down to and including some kind of perverse pride.
I have had experience with people you are describing (these are usually local people), I have seen people who can by classified as amateur level professional beggars (usually foreign) and the guy did not really fit into none of such classifications.
It felt odd. So I would guess that he was either a higher level professional beggar or a man in despair. Given his reaction, I would put my wager on the first guess. But like I told, I do not know the truth.
But that is not the moral of my story.
What I wanted to point out is that there are people who possible do not hesitate to pretend.
When given supportive legal framework, these people can then develop a lifestyle that is based on the shoplifting.
When caught, they can then pretend that they are in desperate need and given such court decisions, people may let them go without involving the authorities.
I think that in this case the court made a right decision in general, but it should not become a common practice applied without though due diligence.
By definition the only people playing the game, are those willing to hold their nose and wade into the cesspool anyway. Nobody currently in the cesspool can seriously convince anyone that they really thought they were wading into a Randian utopian swimming pool, they knew what they were getting into. Given that intentional acceptance of the situation they're voluntarily a part of, a bag of crackers isn't much of an additional theft. Deal with it.
What is likely to happen, is when I was a kid cigarette cartons were like $10 and out on shelves for anyone to steal, but why would anyone steal a $10 carton of cigs? Now they're like $80 per carton and locked up in closets until after payment is made. So there will be changes in supermarket operations. Oh well, disruption happens.
I find it impossible to reconcile the two parts of this sentence. To me, there is nothing compassionate about even prosecuting a case like this.
I understand that people don't want to be stolen from. Of course not. Nobody wants that. We all want better alternatives.
But the world isn't perfect.
To me saying there is "never a reason to steal" is equivalent to saying you value property over someones life.
To me, that is cold and callous.
No, that does not mean I think it would be good for hordes of starving people to descent on shops. But if the alternative if starvation, then society has a problem. And theft is the smaller part of that problem.
This is a case of economics. The courts are ruling they no longer want to foot the bill, send the homeless man back to the streets and let him beg, feed, and steal from the businesses.
There is room in a justice system to convict a person of a crime without punishing that person in any meaningful way.
We certainly complete eliminate the criminality of intentional homicide when there is sufficient need. Seems to me, that the case for doing so for mere theft of chattels is much stronger. (Also, note that this is separate from the issue of whether or not conversion of chattels ought always to be a tort creating a debt for compensation from the taker to the one deprived, which should be resolved through whatever system a jurisdiction has for the resolution of debts and which may requiring repayment when the taker is capable, with interest, unless the debt is qualified for discharge, e.g., through bankruptcy or similar proceedings. But that's a different issue than criminality.)