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Comment by jonstokes | Hacker News Reader

Please don't come to Austin. I moved from SF to Austin a little over two years ago, and I want to make it clear that it's terrible. The food is bad, the people are lame, and all the musicians are out of tune. I hear Chicago is where it's at, so please go there. Or New York. Or anywhere else, really. Just don't come to Austin.

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I'm going to clarify that I'm not picking on you, but I loathe this attitude. I see it in Denver constantly. I moved here, but now we're full up. Ironically, it mostly comes from people that are transplants themselves. It's rather elitist to tell people where they can and can't live especially with the "forget you, I got mine" dynamic going on from the transplants themselves.

Denver has so many wonderful things, but this undercurrent of "I hate all the new people" is so gross. I've encountered it in situations where I'm literally handing money over to someone who is bitching about people moving here.

Let me guess; you are one of those new people and are resentful that people you are freeloading and mooching off of are resentful that you are destroying the community and society they built over time.

Its the same thing in Austin, even though Austin has really be fully deconstructed at this point and it is nothing like the nice place it once was. It's become ever more exclusive, ever more restricted, ever more douchy and pretentious, ever more expensive, ever more packed with people that are trampling everything.

What's actually disgusting is people like you who are incapable of understanding why people would rightfully be resentful about freeloaders and moochers trampling and disrespecting things they created and have a bond to. It's easy being a freeloader and moocher, but it really does undercut any incentive to create anything.

I suspect that in the future we will see examples of restrictive legislation or policies that will rightfully penalize newcomers and mooching types that started swarming to the next version of Austin due to the internet brigading effect.

I can't follow any of this. I'm not sure how moving some place, getting an apartment, getting a job, paying taxes, etc. (aka "living") constitutes "mooching and freeloading". I think you need to take Rhetoric 101 again.

Let me explain what you don't understand and can't follow. The massive influx of people into Austin has degraded what Austin was because it has exceeded any capacity to fully absorb them without a degradation. When you arrive at something that others built and paid for and yet still have full access to as if you had paid for it, that's when you are mooching and freeloading specifically. That's the whole definition of freeloading, not paying for something that you are using or taking advantage of.

Now that you are provided with the information to understand what you could previously not, let me further help by illustrating the only way in which it could not be freeloading and mooching. If new comers had to pay exponentially higher tax rates, essentially as a kind of compensation and even a rate of return, which in turn then lowered the taxes of locals that would be the only way to not be freeloading and mooching, especially in a system like Austin that is in no way capable of sustaining the influx of people without significant impact and degradation of the very thing that attracted the freeloading and mooching types.

You seem to be under the impression that somehow paying the cost of operation is sufficient to compensate for prior investments, let alone rates of return. It's quite ironic that such an erroneous mindset would exist in this forum. Then again, it is a tech startup forum, so it really isn't all that surprising.

Think of it this way. If you take n amount of money and invest it in starting a company by buying facilities, equipment, various other capital goods, and hire people; how long to you think you would last by selling your product or goods at the cost of variable inputs alone? ... not even to mention the return on capital or investment. And that still doesn't even get close to capturing the human factor of community and society and culture that is lost through such a destructive locust like swarming of places.

I get that most people in here can't think past their own selfish wants and desires, but what do you think makes a place, any place, so attractive so that you want to go there, it's not your contribution that you made to that place. You are a textbook freeloader at that point, especially in smaller places like Austin used to be where all the things that attracted people to Austin like community and culture existed before they smothered it.

We are going to see ever more of these kinds of things happen as the internet causes human swarming behaviors. Maybe one day people will start realizing it and its absolutely detrimental impact on society and humanity. It is in effect a great leveling and averaging of humanity, a regression to mediocre mean that destroys uniqueness, actual diversity, and civilization, and incentive for community and creation. What are we when there is nothing unique anymore because the second something becomes great and a community comes together, an influx of freeloaders that want to mooch off of it start pulling it down? We are facing a future of the commoditization of humanity, accelerated by the internet and the exponential pace at which anything good or unique is discovered and immediately smothered and trampled.

Did you build Austin? What constitutes a "local"? No one anywhere in America (or anywhere on Earth that I'm aware of) is required to pay a "foreigner tax" for moving into another city within the same country, which they are already a citizen of. Everything is supply and demand, everything is a push and pull. If Austin is bursting at the seams, it will take a few years for investment and policies to relax it. If Austin starts to empty out, slowly the city will shrink. The ebbs and flows of change are always happening, nothing is constant, everything is in motion. Austin is better served by attracting people than it is by pushing people away.

I was born in Austin, and I've lived here for about eight years. This city and it's people have taught me so much, and I really don't know who I'd be if I never came here. I want to share this place with as many people who want it. If you like what you've heard, come join us. We have a bit of a housing shortage that's driving up the cost of housing, but that's okay. We'll just build more homes.

Freeloaders & moochers are making everything more exclusive, expensive and pretentious?

How does that work? More importantly, if they have it so nice, why don't get what you're due and start freeloading?

Freeloaders are driving up costs, due to the oversupply of people and unmet demand for housing and finite goods and services. The pretentiousness it simply a cultural function of the types of people that are being attracted to Austin; a mixture of internet douchbags that have ever increasingly proliferated adn infested SXSW, which are largely made up of the west coast and big city self-righteously self-absorbed.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, one of two things is true, either you're naive about this matter, or you are precisely the type I just referred to and, as expected, fully lack self-awareness. I realize that hearing something like that will not necessarily be well received here, but it's really a pestilent type of cultural phenomenon which is a pernicious type of cancer that is constantly eating away at any progress that can be made.

I guess you and I don't agree on the definition of freeloading. If these people are coming in and driving up the price of housing with their six-figure incomes, then I can understand your argument (and do a degree empathize with your sentiment). But to call those same people freeloaders is either mendacious on your part or ignorance on mine.

Freeloading is taking advantage of goodwill without returning the favor. I don't see how driving up the market price of housing is freeloading.

Wait, you're a Texan, using the phrase "ever more douchy" [sic]?

Everyone who have moved from something they loathed to something they love wants to preserve their place just like it was when they arrived.

I think that the OP's intent at humor just wooshed right by you. The OP author was poking fun at the situation, by making up things about Austin so that people don't rush there like they did San Francisco.

>by making up things about Austin so that people don't rush there like they did San Francisco.

No this is exactly what I thought OP meant and is just a softer way of telling people to not move somewhere.

Please do come to Bend (although not all at once - at 80K, it's not big enough to absorb that many people at one time). But bring your anti-NIMBY hat!

It's time the US grew up a little bit and realized that moving to "the next place" and repeating the same patterns that made the first place too expensive isn't going to work.

Yay! Bend is gorgeous, I'm from Portland, Oregon and at least it's still affordable. Great food, music, housing, nature, etc.

Yea it's pretty terrible here, hate it.

Perhaps Austin needs a lot of zoning laws and bureaucracy to prevent more people from moving there. Worked really well for SF.

Hard to tell if this comment is sarcastic or not

That's because it's sardonic.

No it's not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Hah, how true..

To add to your list: the bigotry of the Texan people seeps into Austin, the job market is tiny compared to the Bay, it is in a state where Republicans call the shots regarding social issues, their tech job market is dominated by contracted talent firms, and it gets hot as hell.

>> the bigotry of the Texan people

A somewhat interesting counterpoint: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/28/the-m...

I seriously question the validity of that study. Racism has many forms and targets. You can't capture an objective measure of racism by looking purely at trends for the "n-word". You're capturing the researchers' bias as much as the subjects' racism. A foreign exchange student from Germany once remarked to me how she found it so odd that white and black students largely segregated themselves in the cafeteria (this was high school in rural Tennessee) and that she couldn't understand the racist tendencies that lead to this. Then I studied in Germany and realized that 1) there are very few black people there [1], and 2) plenty of Germans are racist against other populations, especially Muslims.

I wonder what this study would find if it expanded the "racist term" set. Maybe Texans are very racist against Mexicans. Maybe Washingtonians are especially racist against Asians. [2]

[1] It's not hard to overlook racism directed at a tiny fraction of the population because you just don't see it much. I didn't think there were really people in the US racist against Jews until I was an adult and encountered people who grew up around sizeable Jewish populations.

[2] I'm not asserting either of these as fact.

> plenty of Germans are racist against other populations, especially Muslims

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but your comment is an example of a pattern I've noticed over the last few years that results in confusion more than clarity -- using the term 'racism' outside of the context of 'race'.

In most cases, I think 'prejudiced' or 'bigoted' is probably a more accurate label when you are talking about irrationally negative attitudes towards religious, political, cultural or national groups.

Not all negative attitudes are necessarily prejudiced or bigoted. Religion and politics exist in the realm of ideas -- one person's 'bigotry' can be another person's rationality and of course reasonable people can agree to disagree without there being any prejudice or bigotry involved.

To be clear, I'm aware that "Muslim" is not a race. I believe it's still valid to refer to racism against Muslims in this scenario. I don't believe that the German prejudice was motivated primarily by religious differences. I don't believe that an ethnically-German Muslim would face the same prejudice as, say, an ethnically-Moroccan or Syrian immigrant. I think this comes down to racism more than anything. Xenophobia might be another accurate label. It's not just religious disagreement, though.

I think most of the anti-Muslim rhetoric in the US these days fits into the same bucket. I don't believe most of it is really religious. You've got Donald Trump claiming he loves Israel and Jews and then claiming that Muslims are ruining/attacking America. That's not a case where the issue is religious disagreement or Jews would be as much a target as Muslims.

Again, you could certainly call this xenophobia. I think racism is still pretty accurate, though.

Not sure if Portland stole Austin's drawbridge syndrome like Keep Portland Weird, but I see the same attitude here.

Portland is great, but it is changing. Housing is growing fast, transportation is not keeping up with the growth and the city is not doing enough to solve the homeless problem. Conversely, amazing food, everything you want in a metro but not the size of NY, excellent outdoor options and a growing tech scene.

There's a lot of "up and coming" cities in the U.S., I'm guessing there must be a massive exodus from all of the traditoinal "big" cities like Chicago and Boston. Add to the list:

* Nashville

* Pittsburg

* Charlotte

* Orlando

* San Jose (at least in terms of population, not sure about industry)

It's an interesting phenomenon given how in the developing world there are more super large cities, are we going the opposite direction?

Nashville, Charlotte - too socially conservative Pittsburgh - great city! Orlando - too small and isolated to be a contender

I don't understand the comment about Orlando. The metro area is the same size as Pittsburgh's, and it's a 90 minute drive from an even larger metro, Tampa.

Don't go to Austin. Come to Boise, Idaho instead.

https://www.tsheets.com/living-in-boise/

(I don't work for T-Sheets but have friends that do.)

We have a great high tech community that is searching hard for more engineers. Great outdoor activities for those few minutes you want to spend away from your keyboard. Low traffic, good wages, great biking environment, decent weather.

Move to Boise!

I second this. Lived in Boise for 3 years last decade and its all true. Its a blue city in a red state.

"We have a great high tech community" I've been seriously considering moving back to Boise (lived their 05-09). Can you name a few companies or startups that are part of the scene?

T-Sheets. Clearwater Analytics. Whitecloud. Cradlepoint (my current employer). MetaGeek. HP and Micron are the giant tech employers here. Microsoft has a small office here (purchased a local start-up a few years ago). Healthwise.

Lots of small tech companies here.

Also: Cleveland as well.

(... jokes on me, you were all going to keep away anyway)

My nana tells me Cleveland is up and coming and that I should move back home. But Cleveland is a city that will always be "up and coming". Perpetually fighting the reality that they are one of the most average cities of all time. I love Cleveland and I am glad I was raised there, but I can't come up with a convincing reason to go back.

It has a weird gravity that tends to bring people back, but I agree there isn't a ton of incentive to come back or anchor here unless a great job opens up (which did so for me but ymmv).

To be fair, I think that all of the rust belt cities sit on an economic spectrum that runs from Flint/Youngstown all the way to Pittsburg/Chicago. Cleveland has teetered towards both sides at different times. It's trending towards a more healthy post-industrial identity now, but could really use a shake-up in the city leadership.

Ohio as a whole is boring. Hardly any outdoor activities and the only scenery is corn. I guess if you like amusement parks, but besides that, it has to be one of the most generic/bland populated states.

For some fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM

Even after factoring in for cost of living adjustments Cleveland isn't worth it for me. It's still a huge pay cut and while there are a few interesting start-ups, big businesses still dominate (Progressive, GE, Philips, Key Bank, The Fed, IBM, etc) and don't have the standard developer-friendly attitude of a lot of west coast tech companies do.

I say this as someone that graduated from CWRU. Cleveland doesn't want developers badly enough to increase wages and benefits. This is all super unfortunate since I still fly out to Ohio several times a year to visit family and it would have been nice to stay in the region.

Come to Chattanooga. We have municipal fiber, cheap housing and no income tax. Our state government is so conservative businesses can get away with pretty much anything, and our city government is so liberal there are funds and grants for just about everything. As long as you can get over the occasional rebel flag bumper sticker, it's the promise land.

I hear you'll have a lower life expectancy in Chicago...but that's just what I gather from the news :(

on the plus side that won't disenfranchise you!

It's not actually that bad. But we probably make more of an effort to be aware of our surroundings. I've never been robbed, but I've known from a young age that you never leave anything valuable visible in your car.

I thought he was referring to all the beer, brauts, and deep dish pizza.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/bill-swerskis-s...

If you want that, come to Milwaukee!

Milwaukee was nice. :,(

Perhaps Austin is in need of an influx of new people to fix the problems you have been observing?

I know you were being sarcastic, but Austin is very overrated. Low VC funding, small city, surrounded by Texas. Ironically, in another related study, the #1 place people want to move to from Bay Area turned out to be NYC - an even more expensive place. I guess the thought there was might as well stay in a big city if we are paying that much money

Perceived better value?

There's a) affordable (even wildly affordable) housing in NYC, though the commute can be around an hour into the city but then there's b) decent public transport and c) a good deal of jobs if you're in tech.

You just put Austin in everyones head now. hehe

I just want to add that Fort Lauderdale is a horrible, horrible place too. We don't have a tech industry here so you won't find work.

Maxim and Motorola seem like nice places to work, for me at least ;)

CBS sports is a major tech employer here (if you really like perl).

I'd like to move home, but my wife hates South Florida. :(

I'm moving back and keeping my SV job . Will travel back and forth. Keep working it, I got mine to agree.

Agreed. But you can find work doing C# .net contracting via recruiters. I've got a friend who's been doing it for 10 years and is never out of work very long and bills at good rates for the area. He was telling me a funny story: he interviewed for a spot in an IT department of averaged sized non-tech company and they said he had to wear slacks, collared long sleeve blouse, and name tag to work every day. lol. He said no thanks.

shame on you for even mentioning Austin :)

You can keep Austin. I'm gonna go gentrify your home town!

the grass is always greener on the other side.

They were being sarcastic.

But were they? Really? 100+ temps in the summer... landlocked in Texas.

But with really cold rivers and natural springs.

I'm not being facetious, Austin is quite overhyped.

I've been told that a lot of the hype comes from the hours of travel through Texas that you have to do to get there.

"It's like an oasis of dirty water in the sahara," a former Austinite once told me. I'm sure they were being hyperbolic.

Landlocked? There is water EVERYWHERE in Austin. There are 7 miles worth of Greenbelts that cut through the entire downtown/urban area. We have Lake Travis and Lake Austin. The Colorado river (Town Lake) is right beside 1st street. We have Barton Springs just south of 1st street.

We're also getting a surf park (Nland) this year and have a ton of wake-boarding/cable parks.

An hour south we have Dripping Springs and Wimberley with Jacobs Well, Blue Hole, Hamilton Pool, Krausse Springs, etc. If you think Austin looks like the rest of Texas, here are some examples;

Hamilton Pool; http://yestotexas.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/hamiltonpoo...

Blue Hole; http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/27/63/44/6240562/3/920x920.jpg

Greenbelt (twin falls); http://www.austinmonthly.com/Twin%20Falls.jpg

I'm breaking Austin rules by talking about these, but hey, I already own a house, so move on in and make my little house even more ridiculously valuable!

In contrast to parent, that makes Austin sound great! I'm packing my bags and moving there now, thanks!

There is a difference between having water near you, and being trapped inside the Republic of Texas. I've spent time there, it wasn't for me.. thats all I'm saying :)

Take those photos and add enough people that it's standing room only.

Except for TX, where it is always brown unless you water it excessively ala Los Angeles.

Austin is green. Like, very green. I was genuinely surprised when I moved here last year.

Only if you insist on having lawns of non-native grasses like Los Angeles. Texas from the Ft.Worth/Austin line east is naturally green and grassy, as is the Hill Country just west of Austin.

Oh, and the breakfast tacos are terrible. :)

And definitely not Seattle.

Are you joking or is this a do as I say not as I do suggestion?

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