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> The Rust program got a segmentation fault because it attempted to write to inaccessible memory, but only through the stack pointer. None of the undefined behaviors disallow this, which I think is why it’s ok for this Rust program to segfault.

What I got out of that is that Rust does not work as advertised if there are still situations where a program could segfault. The entire premise of Rust, as I understood it at least, is that it does things in a safe manner and the programmer does not have to worry about it. Now I learned that there are undefined behaviors. In my view, for a language that bills itself as safe, there should not exist such things as undefined behaviors. As far as I am concerned, then, based on the advertising of Rust, this is false advertising.

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It's not false advertising; it's a bug. Rust is not perfect. It's also not undefined behavior. https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/16012

(Basically, stack probes are only implemented on Windows, and we need them on the other platforms, but it hasn't been implemented yet, for various reasons.)

Okay, but such a bug means Rust is not ready for prime time yet, so this situation then ends up being the case of don't believe the hype.

All software has bugs. Of course, you can certainly decide the severity of each bug for your use-case, but you can find stuff that's just as nasty on any compiler's issue tracker.

I think steveklabnik is right. For instance, take a look at this Java bug, which is relatively recent: https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8046516

On the same grounds you could label Java as a language "not ready for prime time yet".

From a perspective of an assembler, C, shell, and AWK programmer, Java has never been, nor will it ever be ready for anything. We use it at work (we run thousands of Java applications, written externally and in house), and it is a total piece of shit: 300 GB of RAM consumption on the average(!!!), CPU intensive, slow, not backwards compatible (try changing the Java runtime environment under an application and see how well that works for you). From my experience and point of view, Java is overcomplicated and unintuitive, even for the simplest of tasks. Furthermore, I deeply regret that Java was one of my core computer science courses at the university (way back when Java was all the rage). Personally, I would rather drop dead than use Java, and if they tried to force me to write code in it again, I would quit on the spot!

If I had it my way, Java would be a criminal offense carrying a minimum prison sentence of at least 20 years, and if I ever have my own company and I catch someone using Java, I will fire them on the spot with so much gusto! It will be so awesome.

`gcc` still as bugs. `clang` still has bugs. There was one recently on HN where one pass in clang caused undefined behavior in another. Are these not yet ready for prime time?

Furthermore, this is a known bug, and not too high priority probably since it's pretty rare to stack allocate something huge and then use it in a way that could cause a vulnerability (instead of crashing). The fix would involve replacing the segfault with a stack overflow, which also causes a crash.

> `gcc` still as bugs. `clang` still has bugs. There was one recently on HN where one pass in clang caused undefined behavior in another. Are these not yet ready for prime time?

I thought Rust was a language billing itself as safe. GCC and Clang are compilers, they have not mounted a campaign to bill themselves as safe, nor are they trying to bill themselves as the best thing since sliced bread.

Yes, and this is a compiler bug. It is not a bug in the language, and it can be fixed once LLVM gets stack probes for platforms other than Windows (on which it already works). On Windows with rustc you can't cause this issue currently IIRC.

(It can be fixed in rustc itself by inserting stack probes on large stack allocations, but it won't be able to catch cases where LLVM moves things around and in the process creates a new large stack allocation; i.e. after tons of inlining)

Ultimately, it's very hard to weaponize a segfault caused by a stack overflow (and causing a segfault through a guard-page-skipping overflow itself is a rare thing), so as far as practical aspects are concerned, this doesn't really matter.

Like everyone has said so far, it's a bug, a bug which can and will be fixed.

In this case, it's not actually that much of a bug: the segfault is entirely controlled. Threads' stacks are allocated with a guard page at the end that is marked as inaccessible (at the OS level), so any access---read or write---will make the OS kill the process, via a segfault.

This particular type of segfault differs to typical segfaults in other languages because it is guaranteed to happen and guaranteed to be a segfault/kill the program. Segfaults in C code often hint at more serious bugs (e.g. use after free) that can be exploited for remote code execution etc.

The bug is that the stack overflow detection isn't perfect: if writes to particularly large stack frames happen in just the wrong way, then a program can write beyond the guard page instead of being killed. This is obviously unfortunate, and the fix is ensuring LLVM has support for stack problems on all platforms (it currently has them on Windows).

> Okay, but such a bug means Rust is not ready for prime time yet

Does the presence of miscompilations in GCC mean that GCC is not ready for prime time?

AFAIK this could've been fixed in LLVM a long time ago, which would also help C code compiled with clang, although I believe stack probes are opt-in there.

We can't fix it fully in rustc because we don't know the stack size, which can grow with aggressive inlining, for example.

I suppose we could summarily probe allocas we know are larger than the page size, which would solve this particular situation (one large variable), but it's not a panacea.

Spoiler alert: All software has bugs.

Now I want to learn about stack probes!

There were some explanations in the Reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/4ghy5h/blog_by_kamal_...

If I understood right, the stack probes are like this: detect stack allocations that are larger than a page so that they might go past guard pages. In those occasions, do a tight loop of memory accesses with one-page intervals that would trigger the guard pages, to prevent the access going past the guard pages going unnoticed. The probes are done only on large allocations, so the costs are minimal compared to the size of the allocation.

If the stacks grows only by small increments, like on normal recursion, guard pages are going to catch it.

> In my view, for a language that bills itself as safe, there should not exist such things as undefined behaviors. As far as I am concerned, then, based on the advertising of Rust, this is false advertising.

The key thing from the reference [0]:

> "Type checking provides the guarantee that these issues are never caused by safe code."

It's subtle, but I think the situation is that "some segfaults are caused by undefined behaviour, and some undefined behaviour causes segfaults". Neither fully contains the other. One thing I was trying to get across is that a segmentation fault has a very specific meaning, and that meaning is not "bad thing was done with pointers".

[0]: http://doc.rust-lang.org/reference.html#behavior-considered-...

It would be better if everyone would refrain from making comments like this about any project ever. You have made an inflammatory, unnuanced, and ill-informed interpretation of a complicated issue and used it to publicly thrash a lot of people's hard works. You are lowering the discourse.

I know that Rust in particular tries to be very open about the caveats to its claims, but this is the kind of commentary that causes any ambitious project to try to minimize and hide its weaknesses instead of openly and honestly discussing them. I opened this discussion knowing that there would be a comment just like yours, and it made my heart feel heavy.

> It would be better if everyone would refrain from making comments like this about any project ever. You have made an inflammatory, unnuanced, and ill-informed interpretation of a complicated issue and used it to publicly thrash a lot of people's hard works.

Something as core as proper stack handling is to me basic functionality. If the aim is to be a safe language, and there are undefined behaviors, or in this case such bugs, then this is at odds with the Rust public relations effort.

And, any project which resents such technical / conceptual criticism leaves one with much to ponder.

> Something as core as proper stack handling is to me basic functionality.

rustc handles it just as much as other compilers do. It should be safer than that, but it's currently not due to a compiler bug, and features making it safer are not "basic stack handling".

This is not undefined behavior, as has been said multiple times in this thread; please stop repeating this lie. This is a deterministic crash that can't be exploited easily.

> And, any project which resents such technical / conceptual criticism leaves one with much to ponder.

No, their comment said "inflammatory/unnuanced/ill-informed criticism". Which yours is.

> This is not undefined behavior, as has been said multiple times in this thread; please stop repeating this lie.

I wrote: "and there are undefined behaviors, or in this case such bugs". "Whoever can read is clearly at an advantage".

> No, their comment said "inflammatory/unnuanced/ill-informed criticism". Which yours is.

I'll tell you what: if I had deployed Rust in production and I ran into crap like the article described, I'd be really pissed.

This "crap" is a stack overflow. The "correct" way of handling this crap is to terminate the process on a stack overflow (Rust does this for most stack overflows anyway). The current incorrect way causes a segfault instead, which also terminates the process -- not much of a difference for a production user; it crashes either way.

This can lead to bad memory reads if you try really hard to write code that leads to it, and that too it will happen a small fraction of the time -- all the other times it will segfault-crash (and would be caught in testing or in deployment without being exploited).

Of course there are cases in which you can get segfaults, and not only in Rust. The single fact of having a C FFI is enough to break all safety guarantees of your language.

What Rust does promise is that undefined behavior will never happen if you don't use code blocks marked as unsafe (which include the C FFI). In other words, if you are able to trigger undefined behavior without using unsafe code, that is a compiler or library bug.

EDIT: as noted by steveklabnik, this is not undefined behavior. Actually you should get a better error message instead of a segmentation fault (see the link to the issue on GitHub in steveklabnik's comment).

And if you read the article, that is the case. You can get crashes without using blocks marked as unsafe.

I am not denying that. In fact, there is a GitHub issue intended to solve this (https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/16012).

What does Rust promise if I infinitely recursively call a function which can not be tail optimized? Eventually the stack will exceed either available memory or available address space, what then?

IIRC Rust will then abort the process with a SIGILL and display a generic error message.

This is easy to test with a program consisting of `fn main() { main() }`: https://play.rust-lang.org/

In release mode LLVM seems to be optimizing out the entire program due to dead-code elimination (or maybe sibling-call elimination?), but in debug this is what you get:

    <anon>:1:1: 3:2 warning: function cannot return without recurring, #[warn(unconditional_recursion)] on by default
    <anon>:1 fn main() {
    <anon>:2     main()
    <anon>:3 }
    <anon>:2:5: 2:11 note: recursive call site
    <anon>:2     main()
                 ^~~~~~
    <anon>:1:1: 3:2 help: a `loop` may express intention better if this is on purpose

    thread '<main>' has overflowed its stack
    fatal runtime error: stack overflow
    playpen: application terminated abnormally with signal 4 (Illegal instruction)

Even though Rust doesn't guarantee stack probes on any OS but Windows at the moment (LLVM patches pending), Rust does guarantee guard pages on all platforms (AFAIK), and assuming that a function's stack frame is always less than a page (which I think should be true), then Rust does indeed seem to guarantee that such an overflow will raise SIGILL.

I don't think that example is directly relevant: it's tail recursive, and the code still compiles (so there's still runtime behaviour to consider). Additionally, the warning is emitted in both release and debug modes, but only covers "obvious" cases of infinite recursion: it won't say anything about functions that could recur deeply, or infinite recursion that is tricky to prove is infinite.

In any case, the Rust language, when it gets guarantees (i.e. a spec), will at the very least guarantee that stack overflow doesn't result in memory corruption, it may not be too opinionated on how exactly implementations make this guarantee. As you say, the rustc compiler currently handles it by guard pages and aborting but not perfectly (it's not hard to have a large stack frame: `let x = [0; 10000]`).

I'm confused by all your points. The fact that this function is tail recursive doesn't matter, because TCE isn't happening when compiled in debug mode (it would matter if Rust had some other memory-unsafety mitigation that was only enabled in debug mode, but it doesn't), so the stack overflow it exhibits is no different from the stack overflow in a non-tail-recursive function. As for the warning, I wasn't talking about that at all, in fact, I was considering leaving it out of the comment entirely. The relevant part of the output is the final three lines. As for `let x = [0; 10000000];`, that's missing the point of the question that I was responding to, which was concerned with the consequences of stack overflow via recursion, which is moot if the function immediately overflows its stack to begin with.

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