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Comment by have_faith | Hacker News Reader

It's difficult to imagine what your worldview would be like growing up around such a high level of propaganda from a young age. Every piece of visual media you have ever encountered trying to subvert your view of the world. (I guess not too dissimilar to our own lives, on a smaller scale of course).

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It's true of every society to some extent. The West's less overt tactics are arguably more effective than Soviet-style propaganda because they're less obvious.

It’s quite interesting to see Russian or American propaganda when you’re not from either – the patriotism, nationalism, corporatism and anti-intellectualism in the US seems so weird. Almost as weird as Russia.

I mean, doesn’t kids singing the national anthem in the morning before school seem a bit weird to you, too?

As a non-American (I'm British, arguably), the whole American flag saluting/pledge of allegiance/national anthem thing has always seemed excessively patriotic. I doubt many people in the UK could remember the national anthem beyond the first verse, and if required to make a pledge of allegiance, I imagine many would refuse.

But that's probably because it's a less important identity to people in the UK. It's not a country of immigrants, there is more than just national identity to hold people together.

Totally agree, and I'm from Spain.

Not British, but I guess the different national identities (English, Scottish, Welsh...) in the Kingdom play a major role, also considering the fact that one of them has had a fairly dominant role along its history.

Would a Scotsman or Northern Irishman identifies himself as such to a foreigner, rather than British ?

The non-English Brits say that any time a Scottish, Welsh, or Irish person does something good, the press describes them as British; something bad, the press call out their nationality; but that the press do the reverse for the English.

The travelling Scots I meet usually do. It seems very important to them.

Being Scottish isn't important to me on a national identy level.

However saying you are Scottish when abroad as opposed to British tends to result in a much warmer reception.

I've found in my travels within the UK as an American, that the reverse is also true. I tend to get a much warmer reception in Scotland than anywhere else.

(Except Shetland. I got the feeling they don't really like outsiders in Shetland.)

People who self identify as British rather than English, Scots etc. actually seem to be in the minority:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24302914

"What emerges from the census results is that, while a majority of people in England, Scotland and Wales pick English (60%), Scottish (62%) or Welsh (58%) as their sole identity, younger and more diverse communities show higher proportions selecting a British identity."

Edit: I'm a Scot - seems natural for people to describe themselves as English, Welsh etc. and relatively few people I've known got it confused with Ireland (apart from the US VCs who invested in our UK-based startup and thought we were in Ireland and we actually worried that if we corrected them they might not invest... this was ~20 years ago).

I use the label "British" rather reluctantly. I've spent 3/4 of my life in England and 1/4 in Scotland, so it seems like an accurate descriptor, but I'd rather claim to be Scottish if I can claim to be anything. "Britain" is a concept linked inextricably to the UK's imperial history, for me.

As a Scot, it is sometimes much easier to identify as being Scottish in many parts of the world. People tend to be slightly warmer to you when they find out you are from Scotland and not just Britain.

I guess years of colonialism still makes being British slightly tarred.

For example visiting America, people are interested enough if you are from the UK but if you mention specifically Scotland they instantly start getting much more excited.

Or the cringey USA! chants. In most of the world chanting your country name is reserved to far right lunatics.

Compared to the rest of the modern World, we are "far-right". As a libertarian, I'd be politically extreme in any country in Europe. Even the USA Democrats are right of center compared to much of Europe. Besides, we like chanting it; its child-like fun.

"Far right", at least nowadays, in Europe has a very definite meaning that has little to do with economics (in that regard, "Far Right" parties tend to be the opposite than libertarian), but rather with their stance on immigration, religious, and social issues.

Yes, here in the USA, too, Right isn't an economic position. Hence the rise of Donald Mussolini Trump.

And English football fans: "Eng-err-land", "Two world wars and one world cup" etc.

Internationally perhaps, but in the European leagues the fans invent all sorts of comical/ribald chants.

Rare to hear US sport fans come up with anything other than booing, 'D fence', 'ref you suck' or yelling a player's name

Well, there's sporting events... like the World Cup or European Championships, there every national shouts their own country's name without awkward duality feelings (even Germans, I just checked with one to be sure =)

Australia has "Aussie Aussie Aussie! Oi Oi Oi!" Usually a sporting chant, but it's sometimes used by Australian travellers to identify other Australians in a crowd (ie, yell out "Aussie Aussie Aussie" and see if anyone yells back "Oi Oi Oi!")

Same here in Austria

Agreed. Though I'm from Germany, a country that is historically anxious about national pride.

And that includes myself. I get why people want to feel proud of their country, but I don't need this. I view a state as a provider of infrastructure, social security, and societal stability. Therefore I'm not particularly attached to the concrete state I'm living in, as long as it provides these amenities to me.

>there is more than just national identity to hold people together.

What do you mean by that?

Shared history, culture, norms?

The British do have moments of patriotism (I've certainly heard it in events ranging from football events to the Last Night of the Proms).

But yeah, American patriotism has too much of the more ridiculous nationalistic / jingoistic side of things. I can't think of a Western country where something as ridiculous as, say, not wearing a pin with an American flag on it, or supposedly failing to put your hand over your heart during the Presidential anthem, would become a major political attack angle.

I doubt many people in the US could remember (or ever even knew of the existence of) the national anthem beyond the first verse either. The first verse is the only part commonly sung, in my experience.

The British national anthem is a complex affair. The final god save the queen verse is well known internationally, but the initial Sailing By and the shipping forecast in the middle are often missed completely

That whole national anthem (or pledge of allegiance) thing doesn't happen in most American schools, so many of us Americans can't imagine it either. With even northern states (including California) jumping into this, it doesn't seem like the country I grew up in.

I dunno, I remember doing the pledge in my schools, and I'm from a hippy-dippy college town where the 60s never ended.

I went to middle and high school in Mississippi (!!) and Washington state (late 80s early 90s), never did the national anthem or pledge except at special events like football games.

Wow, that's really unexpected. I thought every school in the country started the day with the pledge.

At that time no. Now? I'm not so sure. It is definitely something that not every American has been exposed to.

I've never done the pledge in school, ever. Football games? Sure. Never in class.

Ironically, this belief seems to be the result of ... propaganda.

Not propaganda. I'm sure it depends on the state and/or school district.

Here's the law for Florida. The morning pledge recitation is pretty clearly spelled out. It is up to the school district to implement it or not, of course. (The district I went to chose to.)

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...

I grew up in Georgia and we said the pledge every morning from first grade all the way through high school. There was also a public prayer before football games. This was in the seventies and eighties in a relatively rural community about an hour from Atlanta.

I'm pretty sure they still do the pledge but may have done away with the prayer.

I grew up in a suburb of Chicago and I said the pledge every morning, from from kindergarten to high school. I honestly thought every student in the US did the same.

Nope, definitely not. Seems to be very spotty.

One exercise I picked up recently was to read the "Western" news, i.e. the Guardian and comparing with the Russian worldview at RT.com

RT might seem a bit.. over the top about certain topics (i.e. Syria and how Russia is doing), but is it really, or is it just OUR subtle propaganda that conditions me to take everything Russia says with a pinch of salt?

RT is to the Russian worldview as McDonalds is to the American healthy eating movement. Sorry, but it really is that bad.

I don't understand, do you mean RT is not at all representative of the Russian worldview, or do you mean RT is bad because of the influence it has on the Russian worldview?

Nah, it's terrible. And I'm not only referring to RT English - I find RT Arabic equally difficult to watch to be frank.

I noted that BBC jumped on the "Putin's comrades corrupt" at the same time that RT jumped on "Cameron's father corrupt" at the same time when the Panama papers were released.

Which is sad. The BBC used to be better than RT.

> The West's less overt tactics are arguably more effective than Soviet-style propaganda because they're less obvious.

America has pretty overt propaganda, e.g. the Pentagon paying the NFL millions to 'salute the troops'.

As a non-American, seeing young children reciting the pledge of allegiance in unison is downright creepy. I'm guessing Americans do not have alternative experiences and hence consider it to be normal. I'm guessing the same applies to Koreans growing up in Korea: it's normal. I'm not suggesting the levels of propaganda are in the same ball-park.

As an American I find schoolchildren reciting the pledge of allegiance in the morning very disturbing. Especially ones who are much to young to actually understand what they are saying.

And it always happened in every primary school I went to.

To add to the creepiness, when a child sits for the pledge (legal, AFAIK) and is punished. Add the comments from supposedly rational adults on the local news article about it... and you see some people really take forced patriotism seriously.

Nobody can be forced to stand for the pledge or recite it. (West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette[1]) however uninformed school board may illegally punish students anyway or become vindictive in other ways. By not standing for the pledge a kid risks being seen as a troublemaker or "difficult" which can cloud a teacher's judgements in other matters. Making it part of the school day makes no sense for just that reason. Certain religious groups (ex Jehovah's Witnesses) are against pledging allegiance to a flag and it's unfair to put a student in that situation for something so silly as the pledge of allegiance. But as you said some people feel very strongly about this sort of fake and forced ritual.

I have a big problem with teaching it to very young kids who don't really don't have the capacity yet to really understand what it means or what they are pledging to. Most kids kinda slur their way through it because it contains vocabulary that the typical 5 year old wouldn't have. [2]

[1] "The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."

[2] I used to say "I pledge OF allegiance to the flag....under god, invisible..."

We did a flag pledge in Mexico too. I wonder if we copied that from the gringos.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juramento_a_la_Bandera_%28M%C3...

Hm, looking around looks like Argentina and Panama also have similar pledges:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_Panam%C3%A1#Juramen...

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_la_Argentina#Jurame...

I wonder if it's just a generalised American thing to be this defensive of our flags, perhaps as a result of some post-colonial concerns.

> As a non-American, seeing young children reciting the pledge of allegiance in unison is downright creepy.

The practice dates from the heyday of Hitlerism, and arguably springs from much the same sort of motivation - and it's creepy enough before you read about the Bellamy salute.

While some of the US's propaganda is the direct overt military type, most of it is dressed up as "news" or "entertainment".

This year especially, look at the fervor of support for The Party(s). It's amazing how adding a narrow choice sidesteps people's inherent distrust for being told what to do.

Even though I believe it's been proven to be some form of hoax (although I'm not sure if it's been proven by whom), http://propagandafilm.net is highly worth a watch.

There are moments when it truly feels like the above statement equally applies to "us" as it does to "them".

This is true for any "culture" - N.Korea is just not very good at it.

Don't understimate the effect that media and ads has on our society.

which makes me wonder what if myself is also brainwashed to the western propaganda...like "the man in the high castle"

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