Comment by ubernostrum | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ubernostrum | Hacker News Reader

3. You are paying your developers how much?

Ironically this was how I felt sometimes talking to various EU-based companies I was considering working with last year. Especially given the popularity of the "you're a contractor your first year, then maybe you become an employee" model.

I was looking at a situation where:

1. The base pay was already less than my prior salary had been, and

2. Because of the "start as contractor" model I'd get to pay at least an additional 15% in tax for the privilege of working for them, and

3. Because contractors are responsible for their own insurance, I'd get to pay for that out of my own pocket too, and

4. Since even the base pre-tax, pre-overhead rate was about 20% less than my prior salary, it'd kill me when time came to negotiate for my next job -- it'd be the same as being set back multiple years' worth of seniority/experience, since salary negotiation always starts with what you made at your last job.

I ran the math on one offer and it came out close to an effective 40% cut plus a likely significant reduction in whatever I'd make at future jobs. And that's just flat-out unacceptable.

See, and no tripled salary at 20% tax rate would ever pull me to a country where I pay 3000$ per month for a toilet with bed, every toddler has the right to bear arms, clowns like Trump are even seriously considered for presidency, and my kids don't get free health insurance, daycare and later on great education until college level.

And nope, I don't feel unfairly treated by leaving 50% of my paycheck on the desk in exchange for a society with an overall super low crime rate because everyone here has a minimum amount of money here and the same right to the same chances of starting out in life.

Guess it's simply a different lifestyle. :)

There's two things wrong with your argument.

1) Minneapolis, Minnesota

2) Immigrants to Europe

You don't have to be some slick banker type moving to London to want your salary to keep pace with the cost of living. Lack of options in a small european country means less chances to negotiate what's only fair.

America’s population is growing about .8% per year (. 5% from births minus deaths and .3% from net migration). Thus 2% of overall growth produces about 1.2% of per capita growth. That may not sound impressive. But in a single generation of, say, 25 years, that rate of growth leads to a gain of 34.4% in real GDP per capita. (Compounding’s effects produce the excess over the percentage that would result by simply multiplying 25 x 1.2%.) In turn, that 34.4% gain will produce a staggering $19,000 increase in real GDP per capita for the next generation. Were that to be distributed equally, the gain would be $76,000 annually for a family of four.

Ask yourself if the GDP of Sweden is growing and if you're likely to see that as a raise.

Are you going to be able to negotiate a 3000$/yr raise for yourself? 12,000$/yr for your family of 4? (distributed according to the current breakdown of wealth held in the US for the pay range of a computer programmer)

Because that money is going to go SOMEWHERE. And if you can't negotiate for it, it will go to the top. And you will go down. Its that simple.

The U.S.'s GDP might be growing, but only very few are benefitting. For the vast majority, their wages haven't increased in 30 years while costs of housing, health care, and higher eduation have skyrocketed.

Its worse in Europe and no one is talking about because "hurr de hurr socialism" while wages are stagnating.

> Its worse in Europe

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I've read many times that the U.S. is at or near the top (i.e., the worst) in inequality, and that economic mobility also is higher in Euripe. A quick search found the following:

* See the map at the top which shows current inequality (it would take too long to read through the table and figure out historical change):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

* "Income inequality is high in the US, but the support of social welfare programmes is low. In Europe, income inequality is low and the welfare states are generous."

http://voxeu.org/article/perceptions-inequality-europe-and-u...

* "Towards the end of the 2000s the income distribution in Europe was more unequal than in the average OECD country, albeit notably less so than in the United States"

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/income-inequality-in-...

GDP growth in Western Europe moderately outpaced the US between 1973 and 2003.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_%2...

I readily concede that such numbers are not very concrete, but economic growth in the EU is quite similar to economic growth in the US.

I understand and agree with the egalitarian spirit of your post, but...

1) Housing in the vast majority of the US is inexpensive. Paying $3000 for a tiny room is something that pretty much only happens in SF proper and Manhattan.

2) Crime, quality of public schools, etc. are all completely dependent on where you live. As economically unfair as it is, software developer salaries in most of the country are high enough to place you firmly into the middle/upper-middle class, which means that you can afford to live where it's safe and schools are good.

It's morally questionable but American software developers are paid enough that they can for the most part ignore the systemic economic issues that plague the US.

> American software developers are paid enough that they can for the most part ignore the systemic economic issues that plague the US.

We could use a heaping reminder of this every time an argument about social issues comes up on HN.

>1) Housing in the vast majority of the US is inexpensive. Paying $3000 for a tiny room is something that pretty much only happens in SF proper and Manhattan.

HN is such a weird place. I can't believe the number of posts, comments, and job posts where you have to dig deep, deep down to figure out where the heck it's talking about.

And the answer ends up being "Well obviously San Francisco, California." It's the default here.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say your country probably has self-proclaimed white nationalist representatives in your Parliment (or similar governmental apparatus), an almost entirely homogenous demographic (barring recent refugees), no free speech, and state accessible cameras recording on every corner.

It's almost like different places have different tradeoffs, and acting like a smarmy elitist in response to GP's statement about the economics of a situation is a non sequitur.

Trump is very likely to be the republican presidential candidate, and that comes with at least a couple percent chance of winning. Representative Scalise, the house whip, is a white supremacist. I wouldn't throw stones about avowed white supremacists in government...

"Every toddler has a right to bear arms"

No toddler has a right to bear arms in the United States. I hope you were being facetious, otherwise you're grossly misinformed.

It's not quite a right to bear arms, but I learned to shoot about the same time I learned to read (which happened before I started kindergarten.) GP was probably being facetious but it's not a joke that has no basis in reality.

Tripled salary? I suppose if you're awful. I think you have no idea what US devs make compared to their european counterparts if they're worth their salt.

Why are you sharing your salary with new companies? a flexible jump number makes more sense.

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