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Comment by joezydeco | Hacker News Reader

These days I'm a bit more intrigued by Roblox. My 11 year-old son and his friends have completely abandoned Minecraft for it.

Roblox is designed for MMO play from the start, but worlds (or whatever they're called) are completely open to modification with their free editor. Then you can script things in Lua. Lua!

The other night my son was antsy at the dinner table. So I asked him why the rush. He said he "had a flight to catch". Turns out he's joined a group that operates an "airplane" that has scheduled flights in and out of an airport that someone has created. He interviewed to become the first officer on the flight.

It's messier than Minecraft, but the players seem to understand the potential. They're hiring, actually. (no I don't work for them). The stats on this page are interesting too:

http://corp.roblox.com/careers

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The idea of a corporate for-profit proprietary video game being the centerpiece of a generation's learning is horrifying and dystopian to me.

It is the same problem the last generation had, in large part, with the public schooling Microsoft monoculture. Kids grew up on Windows 95 and Office and are now indoctrinated into Microsoft tooling, probably for life, as loyal customers. A very valuable investment on Microsoft's part to capture the computer knowledge of a large portion of a generation.

>> "It is the same problem the last generation had, in large part, with the public schooling Microsoft monoculture. Kids grew up on Windows 95 and Office and are now indoctrinated into Microsoft tooling, probably for life, as loyal customers. A very valuable investment on Microsoft's part to capture the computer knowledge of a large portion of a generation."

I don't think this is as big of an issue as you think. I would be part of that generation. Almost everyone I know (and I mean regular people, I don't have many tech nerd friends) has switched to OS X in work and personal life. A few are on Chromebooks too. Most use a mixture of MS Office (when required for work/college) and Google Docs. So although I agree that there was an MS monoculture when growing up through the 90's/00's I disagree that has led to lifelong loyal custom.

As an alternative point of view, I've always heard that HP calculators were killed by TI giving free calculators to schools - which lead to an entire generation that had no desire to learn RPN, even if it has some serious advantages in a lot of areas.

The counterexamples you provide (OSX and Chromebooks) follow basically the same UI paradigms as the Windows machines they replaced (even if some of those might have been copied from earlier Macs). There still may be less overall diversity in the computers we use, even if there are now a number if different logos on the box.

I don't think HP's RPN calculators were ever in competition with TI. The RPN calculators like the 12C are marketed to finance professionals, and TI has nothing like them. The HP graphing calculators like the 50g are infix (although there is a pretty good RPN app available).

Edit: I do see that HP made graphing calculators with native RPN in the late '80s, so perhaps they were pushing these for academic markets, although today they seem to be the provence of surveyors.

Random aside: I first learned RPN from my father, a budget analyst, and have used it ever since. RealCalc is an Android calculator app with an excellent RPN mode, if you're curious.

The 50g is infix? When did HP switch away from RPN? Oh, it's just an option now. I've had my 48g since college in the late 90s, and now use a 48g emulator on my phone.

HP hasn't been making calculators for years. They buy calculators from some Taiwanese maker and put their logo on them.

I have an hp50g and it kind of sucks in infix mode compared to RPN mode IMO. Everything is hidden behind layers and layers of menus sort of like the TI calculators (which is the point I guess?)

There is this mystic and frankly mythology that HP's RPN is a superior entry method for arithmetic. It's not. I knew RPN from my interest in math before calculators were invented, so I liked HP's RPN. However the direct correspondence between written math and the way it is expressed on a TI calculator is a huge advantage. I still have an HP RPN calculator. I liked its physical shape and size. I like the shape of its buttons. I likes the quality and feel. However, my daughter's TI calculator with a high resolution color screen (for a calculator) that graphs functions and understands calculus is so much more capable, and it supports parentheses with a standard order of operations so it is easier to go from a problem or equation description and entry into the calculator.

Before Python, I ordinarily used bc (a Unix command that acted as a basic calculator) for simple calculator calculations at my desk. bc was much more popular that the other Unix calculator dc which used RPN. Now I just use python's REPL. I only use a calculator if I'm away from a real computer (which is rare since I carry a smart phone).

RPN is a better way to think about calculating or computing.

It's more cumbersome for a single arithmetic operation, but when you're chaining operations together the stack is very powerful.

It's a lot less abstracted from the way the computer works.

Same here. Born into a Sinclair Spectrum and Commodore 64 household, grew up on PC/DOS and spent the majority of my life on Windows, deep inside the Microsoft galaxy, but now I've settled into Macs and OS X.

I think games used to be the big differentiator for many people, more so than office software, but now the gap is decreasing rapidly on all fronts. Apple needs to revisit the Mac mini as a low-cost entry into their ecosystem and make it an attractive PC in its own right as well. I know they're going to be adamant about GPU upgradability, but they should at least promote the Thunderbolt-based external GPUs and help them be a viable solution.

Sure, because it's obviously better to use closed, proprietary hardware from a single source than one that's not just open to global competition but lets you build PCs yourself....

Like I said, I was born in an era where there were many "closed" proprietary platforms, like the Commodore 64.

It's not necessarily bad, it's just a different philosophy; some prefer computers to be appliances, like their TV or refrigerator, that "just work." Others prefer computers to be DIY-servicable machines, like cars, that require active and regular maintenance but can be improved if one is so inclined.

Just because all the "appliance computer" manufacturers almost went out of business going into the 1990s, doesn't mean that philosophy failed, and the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much.

I suspect in an alternate universe/timeline with slightly different twists of fate, the IBM PC has died instead and closed proprietary hardware is the dominant paradigm.

> It's not necessarily bad

It is necessarily bad if you make yourself (or, more important) your business totally dependent on somebody who is a monopoly supplier.

> doesn't mean that philosophy failed, and the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much.

I think all the proprietary systems failed, and there were dozens if not hundreds of them. Apple was the only significant survivor, mainly for pseudo-religious reasons.

The only areas where proprietary systems survived are in mainframes (perpetuation of IBM monopoly) and in games consoles (where hardware can be sold at a loss).

If the IBM PC had died, the world of CP/M would have continued....

> the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much

Not really. The recent resurgence is mainly due to the fact that its lack of serious and/or business software is not the barrier it was when (a) most people can do most things online and (b) it has Unix underneath.

Hackintosh.

Latest Intel HD graphics cards are doing really well. I have a Mac Mini and all games I tried work well on it. I had to reduce the quality settings for some (say Rocket League in 3 player split screen or Dark Souls 2), but every game is completely playable. Some games like Devil May Cry 4, the new Tomb Raider or Bioshock Infinite work well with default quality settings without downgrading quality.

If it were teaching them history, philosophy, science, math, literature, etc. then maybe it'd be disconcerting. But these things seem more focused on algorithmic thinking, programming, maybe math (though not necessarily higher math), logic and a bit more.

MS produced tools, lots of people use them. MS didn't write the textbooks and explain to students that Windows was the be-all-end-all of operating systems, the rest are heathens.

A video game like this, to be successful, requires a well-structured volunteer base (hard), or profit. And it's hardly a monoculture, anyone who wants to put in the time and money is able to produce a competing game.

> the public schooling Microsoft monoculture

My school district has been an Apple monoculture from the time they got their first Apple ][Es in the early 80s to the present day. Other than occasionally playing with a Win 3.1 machine in Sears or something I never touched a Microsoft product until I got my first computer at home when I was 17.

Is this different, do you think, than equally-proprietary physical construction kits like Lego or K'nex?

The idea of a corporate for-profit proprietary video game being the centerpiece of a generation's learning is horrifying and dystopian to me.

Wait...are you referring to Roblox or Minecraft?

Minecraft is now owned my Microsoft.

Given that an uncontrolled market will always favor consolidation, there is at least one obvious step to prevent the dystopia you mention.

The public education system is for-profit as well, only difference is that they make their profit by collecting funds coercively, instead of advertising their service and getting paid voluntarily.

The hatred towards for-profit companies is childish. Why would you expect anyone to build games for you for free?

The hatred towards Microsoft and Apple is childish. Why would you expect anyone to build an operating system for you for free?

Oh, wait...

You sound paranoid.

>>The idea of a corporate for-profit proprietary video game being the centerpiece of a generation's learning is horrifying and dystopian to me.

Yeah, Orwell could write a book out of it.

The big difference here is that indoctrinated MS kids ended up being stuck with that as a work tool later in life.

Minecraft, actually teaches logic, and other skills that can be applied anywhere - and these kids will naturally move onto other tools for work in life - I don't see anybody stuck using minecraft at work (which did happen with MSO).

I've used many different tools, but always come back to the Microsoft office suite. Why? it's better.

Mac concentrates on a few niche features that work really well (like IOS/iphone) and Linux on the desktop (not on the server) is always 10 step behind.

Roblox is designed like an MMO. But that also has drawbacks. They charge like an MMO (monthly subscription), and you are beholden to their system/servers.

I don't think I've ever gotten more value from a software purchase than buying Minecraft for €9.95 in 2010.

If your data isn't in a free format that you can open and work with on your own then you don't own it.

Being a free format helps. But it isn't necessary. The main thing is that you can access the data reliably even if the original software or servers disappear (may require you to make your own periodic backups).

I think you can do a lot on the free tier, my son only recently started spending a little to unlock some of the upgrades.

Personally I'd rather see subscriptions fund a server that's always up. I've researched running my own Minecraft server for the local kids, but it's really not worth it.

You can do okay on a DO VPN for say $20/month. I did this for a while but it was only me and a few friends, and when we wanted to use a modpack I moved the server an oldish computer in my house as it needed more grunt.

Calculating the power costs put it at about $30/month in electricity, ignoring all the time wasted getting it running.

That's a strange sentiment to hear, and somewhat disheartening. Minecraft servers are easy to set up, and can easily run in the background of an old server or PC.

I've been running one for over a year on my gaming PC and home internet connection.

I'm running a vanilla minecraft server for 4-6 people on the Raspberry Pi 3 and it runs beautifully, never had any problems. Pi2 was a bit slow at times, but the latest Pi3 has enough horsepower to support that many people without a problem. So really, setting up a minecraft server costs $30 for the Pi + $10 for the sd card. At 5W power usage it can stay on all the time.

ROBLOX has Builder's Club which is subscription, but you can also just buy some ROBUX from time to time if you don't want to subscribe. It is pretty playable with very little spend, most games on the platform aren't play to win (because the players themselves make the games).

Well, if you are impressed by Lua scripting in a game, go back to Minecraft, then install OpenComputers.

They have it all. Those computers have firmware, an OS (LuaOS), filessystems, network routers, you name it. You can do pretty interesting things with the peripherals. You can also program robots.

https://github.com/MightyPirates/OpenComputers

Was more impressed that it's part of the system architecture from the start, instead of being grafted into the setup later.

I'm a big fan of computercraft. You can quickly build turtles (robots) and program them to do almost anything a player can do. So you can automate almost everything and it's really fun. (Also in Lua.)

Open computers does have robots, but they are much more difficult to actually build, and have more constraints. I did try to get into OpenComputers, but everything felt so much more limited and expensive, and I just wanted to program cool things.

Parents, watch your kids on this if you haven't already taught them about Internet safety. Many players creatively get around the kid-friendly chat filters and behave in ways you may not want your younger ones to mimic.

Source: my 8 year old daughter who tattled on strangers and said "didn't their parents teach them to keep stuff private?"

That kid. <3

Just downloaded it, fyi it tries to get you to buy money with money literally at the very beginning of the first two games I tried, definitely don't recommend this game.

Haven't head of that game before. I looked at a few minutes of game play on Youtube and their website. This feels a lot like Second Life: A blank world were everything has to be developed in order to do anything meaningful. I might be totally wrong with my first impression so I'm curious it's comparable.

Agreed, my kids (10) gave up on Minecraft a while ago and have been completely focused on Roblox for the past year.

Did you look at the modded Minecraft experience at all, before doing that?

Ah good old tekkit. Now there is test pack please ignore which shows promise but to be honest the modding scene slowed down after the bukkit/forge mess and due to the fatigue of never receiving the promised stable api.

The moment ic2 stopped development I lost interest.

Buildcraft spawned factorio however, so my logistic nerd needs are satisfyed :)

IC2 never stopped development, it just became... different.

I haven't but will now

I recommend you start with a modpack.

That said, not just any pack will do. My absolute favorite is TPPI2; I think it's by far the most professional one, but it does require a pretty hefty machine. If it doesn't work, then there are a number of smaller/more specialized packs that likely would.

Minetest is a minecraft quasi-clone that uses lua... and it's free software.

Free and open source, and way faster than Minecraft on older hardware.

Sat down with my son and Minetest a few weeks ago. The look on his face when he first succeeded in writing up a Lua mod that gave him super powers that worked in the game? Priceless.

Do they expect you to fix Roblox by reprogramming it? it seems pretty buggy... and it is quite different from Minecraft...

Lua, the new MUSH

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