Part time Entrepreneur, fulltime Employee | Hacker News Reader

Part time Entrepreneur, fulltime Employee

sdk.org.nz

91 pointsstaunch65 comments

This is totally doable, although I don't envy him for trying to do it while also having a wife and kids. If your life situation allows you to play WoW, your life situation allows you to run a business. Heck, my business is considerably less complicated than the guild I used to run. I managed to cut my headcount by 39 and my hours by 75%. (You may have to stop playing WoW. Apologies in advance, but trust me, the loot gets better.)

It occurs to me that I've never done a blog post explicitly about doing a business while also employed. I think I might over the weekend. Is there anything specific y'all would be interested in hearing about?

I would love to hear about any techniques you have for overcoming mental fatigue at the end of your work day when you still have business work to do.

Did you work on your business before the work day started? Or something different?

Seconded. It seems to me that whenever people tell you to keep your day job while trying to start a business, their day jobs are not related to programming.(so IT, analyst...)

I would love to read something about how your code all day for your day job and then code all night for your business. That info, coming from somebody who has done it before would be a very interesting read.

(Another interesting thing would be reading about how to keep your sanity while doing all of this for more than a few weeks)

To code on both, do something you care about as your startup. _really_ care about. Also, there is lots to do. Do whatever seems most fun to you at the time. By the time you are forced to do things for clients, you'll have enough code and good habits formed to manage it.

To stay sane, set strict rules about time off. For me, Friday night and Saturday (all day and night) are family time. Sunday is totally Gridspy time. If I start to feel tired, admit it and remind yourself that you can ship one month later and take a few days off here and there.

I haven't started a business in spare time, but I've put similar amounts of time into various open-source, unpaid projects.

I'd second the guy who said, "do something you really care about." I find that programming stuff that motivates me at home makes it much easier to keep writing the grind-work code at work.

Of course, there's a lot of stuff in starting a business that sucks. I'd say to try to arrange your work so that you're writing code you like when you're already feeling pretty burnt out, and doing more "normal" business tasks (write documentation, set up servers, do paperwork) when you're more energetic.

Writing code to refresh yourself isn't perfect. And starting a business is a lot more than just coding. But it's a hack that can help a fair bit, especially in the more coding-heavy sections of starting up.

Caffeine. I know one word responses are generally frowned upon here, but seriously that was how I do it.

I don't want to work on anything. I have just put the kids to bed. Its 9pm. Only a red-bull, or a pot of coffee, or maybe just a diet coke or tea can get me going again. That and music. I'll put on some music with headphones and its kind of like a signal to my brain that its time to start coding again.

Drink enough coffee and after awhile it stops being effective.

Pretend you have Gordon Ramsay, or someone from your life who can act like Gordon Ramsay, yelling at you.

Here's my inner monologue when I know it'd be better for me to do something but I'm too "tired" to get it done: SHUT THE &@# UP YOU (&@#ING WHINER. DO YOU WANT IT OR NOT? JUST (*@&#ING DO IT.

And then I get to work!

This is really important to me. Every second "lifehack" post is about getting up all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and being productive in the mornings. But what if you've got 8 hours of boredom/frustration/pointless cubicle existence, a family meal and some kids time to get through before you need to kickstart your brain? How do others manage that (legally, without drugs)? Personally, it takes about 2 hours before I start getting being productive and getting stuck into my side-business (i.e., 10pm)

Actually, my own situation is slightly different. I meet the demographics (married, kids, age, full time job)--I just have a problem with getting to 9PM and making the choice of "I can spend four hours now, or no hours", and not liking either one.

I'd love to take smaller chunks but it seems if I work I get kind of wired and it's harder for me to settle down. Also of course the larger chunks are more effective. The massive breakthrough for me would be improving how I maintain mental state between sessions. I actually have this issue also in my day job, house projects--you name it. Being able to sit down and instantly know what I was working on, where in the process I need to be, what the next step is--that is my biggest impediment to the side gig and I have been trying to solve this for years.

The best thing I've found is joining a gym, after lifting some weights and doing some cardio, my body is tired and my mind get's refreshed allowing me to get more focused work done... that's just me though...

I started doing polyphasic sleep, so I work in the mornings from 3am to 9am, and then dayjob afterward. It's been working ok-ish so far.

I definitely would be. Any techniques you've developed for switching contexts would be greatly appreciated..

Check Hacker News, email, etc. Remind myself that I'm going to be a huge startup soon. Choose what excites me the most and bite of a tiny chunk.

If I'm having real trouble, I'll promise myself to do 30 minutes and stop if I'm not making headway. Most nights I continue after that for some time.

I found that envisioning myself as a 'huge startup soon', or very successful in the near future is damaging. It's far more productive to focus on solving the most important problems, and not on the prize.

It depends on the perspective.

I tend to think a lot about a "huge startup soon" but not as a prize, but as a completely different set of challenges that needs to be kept in mind right now.

For instance, what I need to improve in order to become a CEO of a mid-sized company? What are my personality traits that limit company's growth?

Another example: the first employees you hire set the DNA of the company. If you hire them as an independent self-motivated agents, it is completely different story than passive helpers.

Also, it is important to reframe your venture into something bigger to avoid the trap of an eternal "side project", which you do not treat too seriously.

I actually see "Huge startup" as "3-6 months runway, 3 employees." I use that to justify short term sacrifices, but I find the work itself the best motivator.

I second you on the gaming argument. Before I got into business, I reminded myself about how much free time to work in if I stopped playing games and watching as much TV.

You could play games like Jade Dynasty, which has botting integrated into the game. So you could do work while the game runs in the background.

Even better: http://idlerpg.net

I prefer http://progressquest.com/

Proud to see my blog post on HN.

It has been a tough slog working full-time while spending every other waking moment on Gridspy. It doesn't help that I spend every waking moment thinking about it, even when I should be applying myself to my full-time job.

Biggest challenges:

1) Starting work again at 7pm after dinner, and sticking with it as long as possible

2) Stopping at 10:30pm so I'm not dead after 2 days

3) Taking time off on Saturday, simultaneously fantastic + frustrating

4) Being an available father, giving love and attention to my kids

5) Knowing that I could do in one normal day what takes me Monday..Friday to do.

The second I can step up and go full-time Gridspy without going bankrupt in 1 month, I will.

It's always great to hear of others attempting the same thing. Although, I must admit that I'm not applying myself to the day job - at all.

Bizarrely though, I've just had my annual review and got an above average rating, which is the same as the year I worked my ass off! Perhaps it just says more about the average than about me ;-)

Another limiting factor which I think you alluded to: just because you have a full-time job doesn't mean your savings (runway) is growing. Personally, my job doesn't even pay the bills so I need the side-business to generate income even if I keep the day job.

Well written and it comes at a great time for me. It's such a wonderful feeling to know there's someone else out there like me... I too am a family man (2 + 1 in the oven) with a fulltime job and a mortgage, and am trying to make time to build something by myself.

I love pg's essays though I often feel depressed after reading them. He frequently seems to be saying "don't even try unless you're young, free, have at least one partner, live in the valley, have no other obligations, and are willing to 'work until you endanger your health'"

Added your blog to my RSS reader.

@pg: Uh... that came across as far more negative than I intended. I really do like reading your work and want to read more. The fact that I don't fit into (what I think is) your primary audience does NOT make them any less valuable to me.

Thanks for writing this. I am in the same position, working full-time in a semi-demanding job, with a wife, son, big lawn to mow, etc. I've been working nights and weekends for over a year and am 2 months away from launching.

My schedule looks almost exactly like yours. On Saturdays, I watch my son while my wife is at work, and I have the same mixed feelings about spending time with my son vs. working on my startup. Then I feel guilty for having mixed feelings...you know how it goes.

Good luck with your startup. Keep fighting the good fight!

I am in the same position, working full-time in a semi-demanding job, with a wife, son, big lawn to mow, etc.

Keep the job, keep the wife, keep the son, outsource the lawn.

Of course--but at least for me, I don't have enough spare cash flow to outsource all the handyman stuff. And if I did, I've found that the time cost of finding someone and managing them can be at times almost as much as doing it myself. So I end up paying more for a very small savings in time.

Actually, our current strategy is to stop watering the lawn and have a big patch of dirt in the front (our area has a drought). :) Disadvantages: dirt tracked in the house, neighbors hate us.

But I just bought a John Deere riding mower!

Congrats on both your hard work and what looks like a very cool product. It's encouraging to see others with families making their product aspirations work, even if at a slower pace than a FT startup. Best of luck!

I'm inspired. I don't have a family yet, so if you can do it, I can do it... Good luck!

I'm sure dedicating yourself to one single project may be better, but doing both is absolutely doable at the beginning. You can even go a little further. At one (recent) point of my career I had more full time employees than the company of which I was an employee at the very same time. Sometimes you don't have the option of risk it all, so you need to adapt, even if that means skipping your beauty sleep. It's all about been driven, just like you are.

Thanks.

Honestly, what Gridspy needs is more of Me. I don't see myself paying other people to do work until I am running full-time because I am more dedicated (it _is_ my startup) and also I know the code better.

Interesting situation to be in, working elsewhere while your start-up employs others. I'd be jealous of my employees in that situation.

Oh, I was just working 16 hours instead of 8 (mmm... that actually didn't change after I quit). My case is different cause mostly I'm a designer/front-end developer so I couldn't have done it all by myself anyway.

Sounds about right without the kids.

Btw, if you have a blog you should probably take the opportunity to pimp your own site with a little seo magic. looks like your first keyword is "power use" and the chances of putting someone else putting that in an "a" tag aren't that likely. Also a direct link to the site rather than just the blog entry would be helpful for real people.

Google will take the first link to [a href = "gridspy"][/a] and take a look inbetween the a tags, and consider that a relavent term for searches so [a href = "gridspy"]power use[/a] would help increase your search ranking for that term.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm still focusing on the part of the "SEO Pyramid" where I create great content that people want to read. There is heaps of tuning to do soon.

There should be a support group for over 30 startup founders that have families, bills, and full-time jobs.

My advice to any one trying to do this is to be patient and find a time management system that works for you. Also, get used to the hours between 8pm and 2am. Those hours can be your best friend and worse enemy.

Hi, 38, married, 2 kids, full time job and a mortgage here.

My hours are from 4:30am to 7:15am, 30 minutes at lunch and 30 minutes making the next day's todo list before bed.

Even though the time I can commit is short I'm much more productive now than I was at 28 working crazy hours.

Same here. 37 yrs old w/ 2 kids (3 & 2 yr olds!). Full-time job that I like but don't love. Lots of ideas that need room to breathe in their own skin. I'm preparing to create an LLC to do just that.

I don't know where it will lead in the future (maybe nowhere), but I'm prepared to deal with that. The harder thing to deal with is simply sitting on the sidelines doing nothing while life passes me by.

How is someone with a family, bills, a full-time job, and a startup going to have time to go to support group meetings?

Yeah. Unfortunately I'd be a husk if I stayed up as late as I'd like and still had to get up for the kids in the morning.

Wonderful read. Your story could be mine. I completely understand all the things you’re saying. I know what it feels like to have two small kids, a job, a mortgage, having to get up at night to feed a baby and dreaming of having your own succesful business. I have been developing my own sites for the last decade, without ever being really succesful (in terms of money). I’ve been working at my own computer from eight in the evening until I can’t keep my eyes open. Almost every night, and many saturdays and sundays. Sometimes in the middle of the night, when I can’t sleep (which happenes quite often :-).

Even though the lack of succes is at times wildly dissapointing, especially when seeing friends having good academic careers (a path I could have chosen), and even though I feel tired at almost any moment of any day, I’m not complaining. Not once. I cannot help but go on with the next application, and the next and the next. It’s my dream, and one day I will succeed.

I currently have two things in the pipeline, for which I have the same high hopes again - even though the odds are against me :-)

I hope you do well. Instead of just talking about the things you could do (like many people), you act. And you work long days. You deserve your succes, and I hope you will have your deserved succes one day, hopefully just as me.

Ah, and perhaps most importantly: I found your post to be very motivational. Keep it up!

Maybe focusing on and sticking with one thing may be a better alternative?

Good point, but don't get me wrong: I don't work at too many things at the same time. Of the two things I'm working on now, one is rather simple, so I don't think I'm dividing my energy over too many things.

(And also, when I get excited about something, I just can't wait to do at least some work on it :-)

You do need to stick to one idea for a long time for it to succeed. See http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/01/overnight-success-i...

Even college grads can follow some of this advice. Come out of school ladened with debt is no picnic and sure going straight to a startup sure seems like a sexy idea but even Paul Graham admits most startups fail. Sure valuable experience, and new contacts help ease that but there are alternatives. I would prefer to go into business for myself once I am debt free and on solid footing (not waiting because I am scared....well I am a little)

Not to mention that above average coders can make some good salaries.

Not to mention students still in college. Being a fulltime student is akin to being a fulltime employee, with or without a spouse. Add in undergrad research still more time is taken up.

It's all about priorities. You have to allocate your time wisely and remove activities that aren't centrally valuable.

But are you really going to be able to walk away from a comfortable life and good salary some years down the road to try something risky? The longer you get used to having disposable income and the freedom to do whatever you want outside of 9-5 knowing you'll have a job to go back to tomorrow, the less likely you'll be willing to take the plunge.

I landed a good job right out of school. I soon after (i.e. a few months) left that job to pursue my entrepreneurial dreams because it would have been many times more difficult to leave after being comfortably employed for a few years and fully out of debt.

I'm not saying this scenario never happens, because clearly it does. But there's a reason the stereotypical startup founder is a 20 something fresh out of school or a drop out living on Ramen.

EDIT: grammar

On the other hand, having substantial job experience in an industry helps you identify various pain points and can give you the perspective and wisdom you need to pursue your own venture. If I were a potential customer I would trust a 15-year veteran over a young and inexperienced person when they're selling their "solution" to my problem.

The common stereotype of an entrepreneur is the 20 something living on Ramen, but maybe that's because the 20 somethings are more likely to blog/tweet/otherwise publicly discuss their experience? Here's one of several articles I've seen that indicate the stereotype may be completely wrong: http://ecopreneurist.com/2009/09/21/the-average-age-of-an-en...

Agree with this, I think their would be more people that regretted not doing a start up straight out of uni than their would be people in start ups regretting not going into work.

If you don't have a great deal yet you have everything to gain and little to lose.

I went straight from school to a startup. I think there was two weeks in between. It was the start of being in an incubation program, though, so I at least had a tiny amount of cash to pay my bills.

I wouldn't have been able to stand going into the regular workforce.

I'm doing this now, but don't have a wife or kids to worry about. It's still HARD. Pacing only solves the burnout problem, but fails to solve the satisfaction problem. Only working 15 to 20 hours each week leaves a lot of gaps where we simply lose track of our short term goals and spend a lot of time re-orienting ourselves. When we actually have a productive day, it creates frustrating contrast to the unproductive ones. You constantly think "if only we had another 25 hours each week, we'd be so much further along".

Hear hear! I have exactly that problem. Also, Full-time Sunday (for me) is a bittersweet taste of what that would be like.

I'm in the same boat. Knowing and repeatedly experiencing the fact that most startups fail, I have accepted that the time spent is not wasted, even if I never make a dollar. I've already seen positive results in contacts made and experience gained. However, I still have those days when I think the guys "wasting" their time playing WoW or xbox are getting the last laugh.

About your last line: Some people do indeed seem to just be in the right place at the right time and have good things fall in their lap just like that. Even while playing WoW :) But no, I think ultimately only your own hard work is the best possible guarantee for success.

the issue i face is, when i start working on my side project at 8pm i just want to keep working on it and before i realize its 3/4am and now i am late for office next day :(

haha. I hear you brother. And let me guess, after spending the whole week burning the midnight oil and getting 3-4 hours sleep per night, you catch up by sleeping all day saturday?

Try modafinil.

I presume the downvoter thought I was being condescending, but I was commiserating! That's the exact pattern I've fallen into too many times : /

I don't really buy into this approach especially with young children and a wife. Read all the posts detailing how hard this approach is without a wife and kids. How much time is this guy spending with his spouse? How happy is the spouse going to be with you constantly on the computer. This kind of advice will mostly lead to a divorce. Of course, this is case by case as some spouses may be OK with being totally ignored or perhaps you can convince them that this amazing web application is going to make a fortune and you will be able to purchase an island for her (just a couple more weeks honey I promise!); however, for most this advice will land them in a financial and emotionally devastating divorce. When you get married and have kids you need to put some selfish needs on the back burner. I think a better approach is to take money from savings and quit your job. Or perhaps go to 20 hours a weeks or something like that. And if you can't do something like that than just forget it -- it is not meant to be. Your gold rush web application is just not that important -- your wife and kids are.

I completely agree that anyone with kids absolutely must make their kids the #1 priority in their life. Having said that however, it sounds like the OP is working on his startup in the % of his free time that many of his peers might be using for more conventional hobbies like bowling, playing WoW, watching TV, etc.

That is true. Also, any time I spend not working on Gridspy or my day job I spend with my wife and kids.

I totally agree. That is why only about half my free time is spent on Gridspy.

In fact, part of the decision to stay full-time employee right now is so that I can spend time with my family without the huge stress that I might sink our financial ship.

Anyway, It's not a "gold-rush-webapp" - we are satisfying a real need and our clients are willing to pay us well to help them.

This is precisely my M.O., save for having an active project or a definite idea. :-)

Yeah. Don't bother until you have an idea that really fires you up. However, you might want to spend the time actively searching for that great idea (research into unautomated industries, say).

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