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Comment by rglullis | Hacker News Reader

Living in Germany now, I think things in the US are actually better than here. All years I lived in the US I paid less than $50 and was done with the thing in a couple of hours.

In Germany, not only the tax code is complicated, you MUST go through a Steuerberater. There are some associations that can help you if you don't have any property and have a contract job (angestellt). And it still costs more in time and money than just buying TurboTax.

It's incredible to think that Brazil has managed, despite all of the backwards mentality when dealing with bureaucracy, actually manages to be the best example I can give of dealing with taxes: the Brazilian IRS provides a free Java-based tool that is reasonably easy to use.

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I live in Germany and operate a company without a tax advisor, and it's a massive pain but I have my reasons for doing it this way and it is indeed possible. I do both my personal and company taxes myself, and spend extremely little on it. Email me if you want to compare notes.

I'm a Finn and have literally never "done" my taxes. The government mails me a prefilled tax sheet and if it's in order and I don't want to report any extra deductions I don't have to do anything.

Very similar in NZ, except most employees don't have to do a thing, and if you do, you can do it all online using standard HTML app, no plugin.

I had do a return once in 12 years - I had earned contract income over and above regular salary and share sale capital gains in the same year. That's it.

I know no one in Germany who goes to a Steuerberater — everyone just uses the Tax software from ZDF WISO.

As soon as you have a mildly successful business, it makes no sense to do the taxes yourself, especially in Germany, but I guess, this is true in every country.

Well, that’s a very different case, I didn’t notice you were talking about businesses.

There, indeed, Steuerberater are very common. But yeah, that’s probably the case in most countries, as companies are a lot more complex – just the whole case with funneling your money through, say, the UK and the Netherlands to reduce taxes.

For personal taxes, I just fill out the form. It's around a dozen pages including all the enclosures (Anlage N etc). Pretty easy, I don't know why you'd need an advisor or even a fancy software package for that. No idea about corporate taxes though.

> I don't know why you'd need an advisor.

Two cases that come directly to mind:

- Moved to Germany in 2013, worked only 2 months in the end of the year. Tax was collected directly from my employer. Brutto salary in the year was obviously less than the minimum. So I imagined I could get a full refund. Talked with some of my colleagues, none of them would give me any other advice except "You need to get a Steuerberater". Talked with closer friends, and even the German ones had difficulty to figure out what to fill in order to get all of the taxes paid.

- 2015 I started working as a consultant. That's when I finally went to a Steuerberater, and to my surprise, the Finanzamt never got my Steuernummer. So how is a foreigner supposed to even know how to fix that?

Right, being a foreigner might make it a bit more difficult, I didn't consider that.

About your first point, I'd have assumed that putting the total amount you earned that year in the income box on Anlage N would suffice?

When you start freelancing as a consultant then it's probably a good idea to consult a Steuerberater, yeah.

See, looks like you could use a Steuerberater, as well. I also initially thought "Oh, I will just indicate the income of the year", but it turns out that the Elster website showed I would get ~2500€ returned. I was expecting at least 3000€, so I didn't file that.

When I went to the Steuerberaterin, I managed to get almost 4500€ back.

Was it good to have the help from her? Sure. But that cost me about 200€, plenty of time and also me having to get involved a lot in the process of solving the simple issue of "I need to be an expert in the tax code just to get my money back from the Government".

If my only choices are between Germany's "complicated in order to keep humans involved and costly" vs the American "complicated to keep tax software companies around, but not so costly", I'd actually take the American model.

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